In this episode, Small Steps Living member Jane Davis talks to Lisa about how small changes have made a huge difference to her children’s health and moods; and how if you’re obsessing about food, you’re wasting energy that you could be spending on having an awesome life.

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Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the podcast! And for what is becoming my absolute favourite thing to do on the podcast, which is interview my amazing Small Steppers. I have a really interesting lady for you to meet today.

Once again, she doesn’t think her story is much chop, and I totally disagree. You are going to learn things about kids’ behaviour, about ditching scales, about how this whole balance, and I guess, the whole Small Steps approach works in real life. So, welcome Jane Davis.

Jane: Hello, thank you!

Lisa: Where are you dialling in from?

Jane: I’m halfway between two little towns in Western Australia, in East Pingelly. So, we’re between Brookton and Pingelly.

Lisa: I just can’t tell you how many Small Steppers there are in WA. What’s with that? I feel like there’s actually this big, huge, remote Australia community that is having to connect online to groups like this, because the access to go to events, or things like that, just doesn’t actually exist. Would that be-,

Jane: That’s right. Yes, that’s correct. So, I do pretty much everything online. All my shopping, all my communicating. I’m studying externally, I’m at Uni, so I do all that online. Everything is all online now! I think my Mum said the other day, there’s a population of two million in WA, and only 500,000 of those are rural, in Western Australia.

Lisa: Oh, wow.

Jane: Yes, so we’re quite spread out. We’re not close too anything, we don’t have a lot of shops, or anything like that. So, yes, everything’s online.

Lisa: So, when you say you do all your shopping online, is that from supermarkets?

Jane: Yes. Supermarkets, clothing, pantry staples, all that sort of thing. Like, we have an IGA in town, but it’s very small, and what they do provide is not of the best quality, and it’s very expensive. Costs a fortune. It’s actually cheaper to drive to Perth, which is an hour-and-a-half one way, and buy food in Perth, and come back again, than it is to buy it locally. Which is probably not what I should be saying. I should be saying, ‘Buy local,’ but when it costs you a lot, and it’s not of quality, it’s a bit harder.

Lisa: That’s really hard, yes. And I think it’s a story that I hear quite a lot. Even people, you know, I talk about farmers’ markets. In Brisbane, I have two that I could go to on a Saturday, and two that I could go to on a Sunday. Totally spoilt. Yes, but even people in Melbourne don’t have that. There are different challenges, depending on where you live, for sure. So, okay, have you always lived there, and tell us just a little bit about your family.

Jane: Yes. So, I actually grew up in a town called Albany, right down at the bottom of WA, it’s a coastal town, and then Mum and Dad moved to Perth when I hit high school. So, I did high school in Perth, and then, yes, pretty well from there, I moved to another small town when I was about 22, and I took a job managing a rec centre in a small town in Narrogin for a little while. And then I ended up meeting my husband, and getting married, and moving to the farm.

Lisa: So, you’re a farmer’s wife?

Jane: I am! It keeps us busy.

Lisa: What do you farm?

Jane: A little bit of crop, but mainly sheep. So, we have a lot of sheep. It keeps us busy.

Lisa: Yes, I’m sure it does. Okay, so tell us about how you got started on this wholefoods thing. Was it always something for you, or was it something that you came to?

Jane: So, it was actually, I was on Facebook, online, and I saw your webinar with Jude Blereau, and I listened to it, and it actually made me have all these, ‘Aha,’ moments. So, when I talked about the MSG with my daughter, one example was we were driving home from Perth, I gave her chicken nuggets, from MacDonald’s, I think it was, and it was within about twenty minutes, she was screaming at me. Like, angry.

And she’s the most placid kid, she was so chilled, dream baby, textbook. Slept all the time, breastfed amazing, no problems, and then this kid, just yelling, screaming, bright red. Nothing I said or did could calm her down, she was just a mess. And I was like, ‘What the heck?’ And I was like, ‘The only thing that’s different is the nuggets.’

So, I thought, ‘Oh well, I won’t give them to her again,’ and we didn’t have an issue again. Then I listened to your webinar with Jude, and a few things started to click in place, and then that’s when we started to realise a few things.

Lisa: If anyone’s listening and you’re not sure, Jane is referring to Jude Blereau, who is, like, the Godmother of Australian wholefoods. She is an amazing woman, and I have interviewed her so many times now, and every time, I learn something. It’s her common sense approach, and just going back to basics, that I love.

Even although I feel like she’s at a point that I’d love to be in terms of the ingredients that she uses, her ability to actually cook technical things, is, kind of, a little bit beyond me right now with the three little kids. But tell me, when you heard that, and then when you experienced the chicken nugget thing. I know the MSG story, but everyone else doesn’t know it, so, perhaps, give us a little bit of a-,

Jane: Yes, sure. So, every Sunday night, the local Roadhouse, the BP, we’d call in and get our fish and chips. My husband plays football, so we’d be there all day, the last thing I’d want to do is come home and cook. So, we’d grab our fish and chips, and it would be every Monday night, almost exactly 24 hours later, she would have an epic meltdown. They would last, sometimes, 45 minutes to an hour, hour-and-a-half, and you couldn’t touch her, couldn’t go near her.

The one thing that was the hardest, at one stage, she was rocking back and forth, holding the back of her head. She was only two, two-and-a-half, maybe three. She’s about three-and-a-half now. And I was like, ‘This is not normal.’ Three-year-olds, they have their tantrums, but they pull themselves out of it pretty quick, you know, you can distract them with something and they’re fine. But, I was like, ‘This cannot be normal.’

So, I had joined your Small Steps program at that stage, and was just starting to take small steps. It was then that I realised, ‘Well, maybe I’ll just cut out the fish and chips,’ considering we’d had the reaction from the nuggets not so long ago. And then, yes, it was just almost instant, nothing. I was like, ‘How can fish and chips on a Sunday night have such an effect?’

Then I was talking to my sister, who’s also a teacher in Melbourne, and she said, ‘I’ve just done some research. Have you ever heard of an MSG tantrum?’ And I was like, ‘No, an MSG tantrum. Surely that’s not a real thing?’ She was like, ‘It is, and it happens, exactly 24 hours after eating it.’ And I was like, lightbulb moment, that’s it, it has to go. Which makes it hard, but it’s so worth it not giving it to her. She’s just a different child, completely.

Lisa: It’s just so crazy that we don’t know what all of this food is doing, and can you imagine if you were a family who had that a few nights a week? And were just in this constant meltdown of children situation. And it’s not something that happens to everyone, but how lucky for her that you’ve copped on. Because I think that’s the worst thing, when you see your child going through something, that you’re like, ‘I don’t want this to be your thing.’ Like, ‘I’m suffering, this sucks for me, but this sucks harder for you.’

Jane: That’s right, exactly. And she was just to the point where after the tantrum, she’d just be so exhausted, but then she’d go to sleep. And it wouldn’t be a good, solid sleep where she’d sleep through the night. She was restless, and she’d cry out, and all sorts of things throughout the night. So, it wasn’t even like she was sleeping well, or anything afterwards. So, I was like, ‘There’s got to be something else,’ and then yes, it was the MSG.

Lisa: So, talk to us about, where was food before Small Steps? You know, did you make improvements from that? Because from what you shared with me, you knew how to cook.

Jane: Yes. Well, I have to know how to cook, I’m a farmer’s wife! But everything was pretty well, packet cake mixes, because it was quick. Whizz it up, chuck it in the oven. Mini chocolate bars, summer rolls, juice boxes. It was just whatever I could get my hands on that was quick and easy, and I could chuck in a lunchbox. And my husband’s grown up with that as well, so I just thought, ‘Well, that’s what he likes, I know he likes it, so I’ll just throw it in.’

Yes, so it was because my husband could see the change in our daughter that he was like, ‘No, we need to stick with this, and change what we’re eating, and everything. Every now and then, he goes, ‘I’m too skinny,’ and I said, ‘Well, that’s because you’re not eating all the junk when you’re sitting on the tractor, not putting on all the weight!’ He was like, ‘Oh, I’ll have to buy smaller clothes.’ I was like, ‘Well, at least you’re healthy, dear!’

Lisa: Well, exactly! So, what do you reckon were some of the quickest, easiest things that you started to change? Was it really hard, or were there some things that were easy?

Jane: I’ve actually found it quicker to make something from scratch than try and read the instructions on the back of the box of how to make it, or whatever else. It’s actually been quite an easy transition. I think I spoke to you before, when we had our Perth Small Steps catch-up, and I was saying that I was previously a Thermomix Consultant, and everything else.

Since I’ve been making things from scratch, I’ve actually found that I’m not using the Thermomix as much. It’ just so quick to just chop up the veggies, chuck it in the tray, put the sausages on, in the oven, done. I don’t know how to explain it, or why, but it is just easier just to do it yourself, from scratch.

Lisa: I started my Facebook page as a Thermomix Consultant, because I was experimenting with this new machine, and doing all fun things. Then I got a bit the same as you. I feel like, ‘Yes, it’s brilliant, and it’s a helpful tool in my kitchen.’ And especially because of the kids, and where they’re at, and they don’t like everything mixed in together, that I was just doing a lot of roast veggies. A lot of sweet potato, a lot of steamed greens, that sort of stuff. Yes, and the flavour, if you get good food, it’s enough.

Jane: Yes, it sure is. The flavour is 100 times better.

Lisa: Yes. Like, I tried to do Bolognese in the Thermomix, so many times, all of the best recipes, I tried. And you just cannot beat a simmered down, on the stove top, reducing, good, hearty-,

Jane: Yes, the flavour’s all the way through the meat. It’s beautiful.

Lisa: Yes. So, tell us a little bit about you, and your relationship with yourself throughout all of this.

Jane: Yes. So, previously, obviously, because we were eating foods that probably weren’t the best for us, my weight used to fluctuate a lot. Like, I could lose 5kg in two weeks. On, off, on, off, it just went up and down. And I was like, ‘This is crazy.’ It used to drive me nuts, because I’d have two different sizes in my wardrobe, ‘Which one am I going to wear this week?’ sort of thing.

It’s been, sort of, like an (? 13:09). I feel like my brain isn’t foggy any more, it’s so clear, I can think straight. I never used to be able to do lots of things at once, or think about several things at once, and I would just get overwhelmed and almost have a meltdown myself. But now, I can think clearly, I can do several things at once. I know what’s going on, I’m more organised. I’ve been able to go back to University while I’ve got the two girls, and help my husband on the farm, that sort of thing. It’s all just clicked into place.

So, then, I suppose, while all that was happening, I just got distracted from the jumping on the scales, ‘My clothes aren’t fitting,’ etc. Then I started playing netball again, as well, so then the exercise has come in, so, feeling good because I’ve been exercising, eating well. And then all of a sudden I was like, ‘Oh, I don’t even need the scales. I don’t even need to try on different clothes or have different things.’ It was just, ‘Oh, this works. I feel good. I don’t need to worry about it. I’m happy, I’m healthy, I’m just living. It’s great, there’s nothing hanging over me any more.’

Lisa: I just think it’s crazy how so many of us look at what is on the scales as a reflection of who we are, how good we are, how on track. It takes the focus away from the things that you were just talking about, which is actually, ‘How I feel is better. Am I moving?’

I see people, even people who come into Small Steps, and it’s something that I always talk about. Just don’t make life about food, even although food is so important, as we’ve just heard with the MSG tantrums and that kind of thing.

But if we get obsessive about food, then we’re not getting obsessive about living an awesome life. If our focus is kind of on that, like, what makes me feel really good, what can I do right now? And if that becomes, kind of, your compass point, I guess, then eating a great meal is, like, a result of that. And joining a netball team is like, ‘Oh man, I’m just going to do it.’ Yes, I find that really heart-warming, if Small Steps has played a part in that, because that’s, like, the whole point.

You know, we all know the rules around food. We all know we should be eating lots of vegetables, and if it was just about doing that, well, then we would all be doing it. But it’s not, because there are conversations going on in our head, and self-sabotage, and all that comes about when we just don’t feel good in ourselves.

Jane: Exactly, yes. It’s almost like a circle, too. So, you know you’re not feeling the best, so I now know that I now need to cook something decent to eat, make it, it’s not hard, it’s quick. Then I’ve eaten, and then I feel better. Rather than going to the cupboard, trying to find that packet of whatever, just to shove down quickly before you go do the next thing. It just improves everything.

Lisa: Yes, it’s just a spin-off effect. So, what are you studying at Uni? Tell us.

Jane: I’m finishing off my teaching degree. So, I did it many years ago, when I was younger. And of course, doing the typical, ‘Ah, I can finish it later. I don’t really need to do it now, let’s go do some other things, try a few different jobs.’ Yes, wish I’d finished it when I was a bit younger, but that’s okay. I’m finishing that off now!

Lisa: So, what will you do, primary, secondary?

Jane: Kindy to Year 7.

Lisa: Oh, nice!

Jane: It gives me more options for more work.

Lisa: Yes, which, I’m sure there are not that many schools around your area.

Jane: No.

Lisa: If you could go back in time, or if you could tell yourself, back before you knew anything, what advice would you give yourself about food?

Jane: Good one. It is definitely about the small steps. So, even if you can’t get the organic lettuce, or the organic capsicum, or grass-fed organic beef, or whatever, just eat the fruit and veg, and the meat. Go back to basics, and just do the best you can with what you’ve got.

I face that every day here. I can’t just go and get organic fruit and veg, and grass-fed meat, so I just do the best with what I’ve got. Sometimes, it is frozen veggies, but at least it’s veggies. At least it’s not fish and chips, and my daughter’s going to have a meltdown. Yes, just go back to basics, and work with what you’ve got.

Lisa: I love that, and I think that we see, in Small Steps, the perfectionist tendencies that people have. Like, once you know this stuff, you can’t not know it, and so you want to do it right, but then that causes all kinds of stress. So, do you have any ways in which you’ve been able to bring that-, is it just that you can’t be a perfectionist about it? Or have you had to, kind of, let go of certain things?

Jane: It’s probably a bit of both. I did get very stressed at the beginning, ‘Oh my goodness, how am I going to get all this organic stuff? I don’t know how to do it.’ And then driving to Mindarie, an hour-and-a-half that way, to get meat, and fruit and veg, which I do generally anyway, because I know I can get good quality stuff.

But even then, sometimes, I couldn’t get the organic fruit and veg. So, then I got to the point where I was like, ‘Right, you’re doing your own head in. Enough’s enough, you’ve got to work with what you’ve got. The best you can do at the moment, and when you can get it, get it, and when you can’t, that’s fine too.

Lisa: I remember with Jude, and I don’t know if this is one of the webinars that you watched, when she was like, ‘Get out your Woman’s Weekly biscuits or cakes cookbook. Just make something from that. White sugar, white flour, who the frig cares. Just make it from scratch, and you are winning.’ That’s the thing that keeps me sane, sometimes, is whatever I’m doing, if I can do it by myself, which doesn’t always happen, at all, but if I am then every time I do that, then that’s a win for the team.

Jane: That’s right.

Lisa: So, I’m so glad that that has seeped into you. And I love, also, that you can still be patting yourself on the back every step of the way, which I think is important. Because otherwise, like, what are we doing with our life, if we’re just going to be whipping ourselves for the things that we haven’t done?

Jane: Exactly. It puts you in a pretty tough spot, if you can’t get yourself out of that rut, where you just think you’re not doing a good enough job all the time. You just don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. But once you just tell yourself, ‘It’s okay, you’re doing the best you can, let’s just keep going,’ it works. You just get on with it, and your day’s good again.

Lisa: Oh, and that is where we will end this interview, because that is the best piece of advice. Everyone should hear what you just said then. Because, I think if more people took a leaf out of our books. You know, concentrating on our kids, looking at them, and saying, ‘Hey, this doesn’t feel right. I might need to do something about this.’ And then experimenting, without going crazy. And then finding that, ‘Okay, that sticks. Let’s just keep going with that.’

But then, also, just relaxing on the journey, being able to give yourself a pat on the back, and knowing that everything’s going to be okay, is the best. And that’s why your story is worth sharing, because you are an example to people as someone who’s doing amazing things, personally, in your life. You know, finishing off Uni, getting back into sport.

That is something that really holds people up, and you’re out there doing it, and you’re doing great work for your family. And you’re running a farm. Bloody hell, I don’t even know how you do it all! But you’ve just got this beautiful, balanced, approach, and I am so grateful to you for sharing that with us today.

Jane: You’re welcome.

Lisa: The more people know that this is possible, and that it doesn’t have to be stressful, and we don’t have to turn ourselves inside out. Sure, there’s a moment of stress, as a lot of us realise, ‘Oh gosh, the way that I’m doing things might not be the best way.’ But if we can make those changes slowly, and with kindness to ourselves, then I think we’re going to get further, faster.

Jane: That’s right, exactly.

Lisa: Well, thank you Jane.

Jane: You’re welcome! Thank you, it’s been lovely talking to you.

Lisa: Thank you for taking some time out. Now, go and, like, what do you do with sheep? Are you going to shear them?

Jane: Not today, we’re not shearing today! A bit cold weather for that. We usually do that in March. I’m not doing anything with sheep today, thankfully, but I do have cleaning to do!

Lisa: At least now we’ve had a good chat, and then that makes the dishes easier.

Jane: Yes! I don’t think anything makes dishes easier, they’re the bane of my existence. I hate them! That and washing.

Lisa: Ah, the washing pile. I just went away, and I came back, and Mum had been here for a few days, and all of my washing was up-to-date. Everything was away.

Jane: Love it when Mum comes to visit!

Lisa: It’s the best thing! How does she do this? I just don’t know.

Jane: My Mum had four kids under five-and-a-half, in five-and-a-half years, and I honestly look at her now, and say, ‘Mum, how did you do it?’ Honestly. I’ve got two girls, and I cannot fathom the idea of four kids! No way. It’s just incredible.

Lisa: Everything would have been from scratch, for her. I often use that as a barometer. Like, my Granny, she wasn’t going through cookbooks every second day, she wasn’t flicking through Facebook and being bombarded with ideas of what to eat. She just knew how to make a roast, how to make basic food. Chops and mashed potato, whatever it was.

We’re not doing ourselves a favour by complicating it. It’s the head stuff that I think needs to just be calmed right down, so that we can just go back to basics, have our staples, know that we can whip them out, like our parents and their parents did.

Jane: That’s like, the house that my husband and I live in, his Pop built, about 60 years ago when his Pop and his Nana got married, and there are marks still in the sink where his Nana used to cut the sheep up that they got from the paddock. There are marks in the sink from the knife, where she’s cut the sheep up on the sink.

Lisa: That is next level, Jane. Like, I did not know what you were going to say just then!

Jane: Yes, it’s like, really from scratch. She grew all her own food, they had their own meat, they had milk from a cow. They did everything from scratch, themselves.

Lisa: If you think about the difference between what our kids are growing up eating, versus what your dad would have grown up. We’ve just messed things up really quickly for ourselves, and all we need to just do is go back to basics. So, thank you for sharing your story of how you’re doing that. I think you’re a total rockstar, and I’m so grateful to have the chance to chat today.

Jane: No worries. Thanks, Lisa.

In this episode, Small Stepper Karen Hamilton talks about how she learned to connect with her baby as a single parent, donating a kidney to her husband (!), and how keeping things simple and kind has changed her relationship with food.

You can find out more about the Small Steps Living membership here: https://smallstepsliving.com/ssl

Subscribe to the weekly podcast on iTunes or Stitcher

Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: Hey everyone, it’s another episode of the podcast. And lucky for you, today I am interviewing another rockstar Small Stepper. Now, this woman has one of the most interesting stories that you’re going to hear. There’s a lot going on with this woman, and the topics that we’re going to be covering today, I think so many of you are going to resonate with. And I definitely know that you’re going to feel a bit more inspired about a certain topic.

So, think about rules that you have created around food. Think about the guilt that you’ve created around food. Think about creating multiple meals for your family members, for the one meal. This is all stuff we’re going to be diving into, plus stacks, stacks, more. Karen Garner Hamilton. Welcome to the podcast!

Karen: Thanks Lisa.

Lisa: We might have a slight little delay.

Karen: You make everything sound so full-on!

Lisa: Well, Karen, let’s just get it out there that this is going to be a pretty cool chat. I am really excited to talk to you, because not many people have been through some of the things that you have.

We can get a bit whingey in our lives, sometimes, I definitely put my hand up there. But some people have really been at the coal face, and I think that you’re one of those people.

Karen: Yes, we’ve been through a bit.

Lisa: So, let’s dive into it. Can you tell us a little bit about your story? I know that that’s hard, a little bit, about a pretty interesting life story. Tell us about what happened when your son was born.

Karen: Okay, so my ex-husband decided to leave about five days after I found out I was pregnant, and so had a fairly tumultuous pregnancy. It was fairly stressful, and things were quite up and down throughout that.

My son was then born about four weeks premature, so spent a bit of time in special care. So, I had to go home from the hospital without him, so, without a son and without a husband in my house, which was a pretty emotional time, for a few weeks, there.

Once he was born, we sort of reconciled for a little bit, from when my son was about two months to about four months old, and then he left for good, finally. So, then I became a single mum for the next, well, two years, until I met my lovely second husband, who has been with me now for almost six years.

Lisa: Karen, I can’t even imagine the-, I don’t know, what is it? Fear, sadness? You know, to be alone, or left, pregnant. What are your actual thoughts? What was that time of life like for you? And also, just the first two years of your son’s life. I can’t actually imagine doing it without Nick, the thought actually makes me feel terrified.

Karen: You know, I’d never been a really maternal person, and so the thought of having a baby by myself, knowing that I’d never really felt like being a mum was something that I’d be good at, was super-scary. I just wasn’t sure how I was going to handle it.

I was in Hobart, and my whole family were in Queensland. So, I had friends down here, but I didn’t have family down here, so that scared me. At one point I was, ‘Do I move back to Queensland, to be in hot weather that I really don’t like, but really close to my family? And leave my job, and everything down here? Or do I stay down here, and just get on with things?’ So, that’s what I did.

Lisa: I think you’re amazing. So, you’d established a career down there, like, it wasn’t as though you wanted to move? You wanted to keep your life down there?

Karen: Yes, I definitely wanted to keep my life down here. You know, I love living in Hobart, my house is in Hobart. At the time, I had great friends and everything down here. And my son’s father was down here.

Well, particularly while I was pregnant, I was still hoping at that point that maybe things were going to work out, despite that I should have seen the signs that they wouldn’t. You know, I was still hoping that my son would get to have two parents with him the whole time.

It was really tough, and I cried a lot throughout my pregnancy. I wasn’t sure that my son would recognise my voice when he was born, because all he’d hear was me crying. But, you know, we got through it and I’ve got an amazing eight-year-old now. So, we’ve obviously done pretty well to get to the point where we are.

Lisa: What was it like, because I reckon there are probably a lot of women out there who would be heading into motherhood, who perhaps, they’re a bit frightened because they haven’t had those mama vibes. What was that like? How do you feel you ended up managing? Did the mother love kick in, or was it something that you felt a bit differently about in the beginning?

Karen: Initially, I had a lot of trouble even connecting with this little baby that was inside me. I refused, despite my friends telling me we needed to start getting things organised, and picking cots, and prams, and stuff, I just refused to buy anything, or get involved with anything like that for quite a long time.

I also didn’t tell people I was pregnant until, probably, I was between four and five months pregnant. Because I wanted to tell my parents in person, because they knew that my ex and I had split up, but I didn’t then want to tell them over the phone that I was also pregnant, and shock them during that. So, I didn’t really have anyone around me who knew that I was pregnant, apart from my ex, who I wasn’t really talking to that much.

So, yes, the bonding part. So, as soon as I could find out what sex my baby was going to be, I did that, so that I could start to try and have a bit of a connection, and at that point, picked a name and everything for him, so I could, sort of, start that process.

It wasn’t easy. At times, you know, I questioned whether I should be a mum, and whether I was going to be a good mum. Was this baby really meant for me? So many things went through my head at the time.

Lisa: Wowser. Wow. And I mean, now, he’s this eight-year-old boy, your little sidekick. It’s amazing. So, then, talk to us about when you met your new husband, because there’s an interesting story behind you guys.

Karen: So then, yes, probably when my son was about eighteen months old, I was sick of feeling like I was just a mum, and I needed to do something for myself. So, sort of, got back into exercise and things like that, and once I’d been doing that for a few months, I thought, ‘You know what, I really am ready to try and, maybe, meet somebody else.’ I wasn’t quite sure how that was going to work with our scenario, but thought I’d give it a go anyway.

So, jumped online, because as a single mum, you can’t actually go to pubs to meet people. You can’t really go many places to go to meet people, so online needed to be where it was at. And I met some rather ‘interesting’ people in the process, and had to, sort of, schedule meetings with them when my son was with his dad.

Eventually, this very nice man, who could spell, which is always a plus for me, and could actually email back some intelligent banter, was very nice. So, my now-husband was actually in Fiji when I first contacted him online, and every night, when he was in Fiji, at someone else’s wedding, would send me an email so I was pretty impressed with this.

It was before he had a phone that he could send me messages, so he’d go to their internet room each night, and send me some emails, which was lovely. And then when he got back, we met up. We met up a couple of times, and then I invited him for dinner, because it was just getting too hard to co-ordinate times.

So I was, like, ‘Right, you just need to come to my space.’ And yes, he was amazing, because he was quite happy for me to hide him in my house, from my son, even though he was only two years old. I was determined he wasn’t going to meet him yet, so he was rushed out the door in the morning, while I hid my son in the kitchen. He’d come over late at night, so my son was in bed.

Lisa: It sounds like something from a soap. Like, ‘Quick, quick, out you go!’ How much more exciting does that make it, as well?

Karen: Yes, it makes it a bit exciting, but I was also, like, ‘Oh, is he really going to continue to do this?’ Because, you know, he’d text me from upstairs, in my bedroom, and go, ‘Okay, I’m ready to leave.’ So, I’d run up and say, ‘Goodbye,’ to him, and then I’d say to my son, ‘Okay, I’m going to go in the kitchen now,’ and he’d sneak out the front doors.

Within a few months of us meeting, my now-husband’s kidney function just started to decrease. He’d had kidney issues for about ten years, at that point, so he needed to be starting dialysis. So, during that process, his mother was being tested as a donor, which we thought was going to go ahead, but then it couldn’t. So, in the back of my mind, whilst that was happening, I was thinking, ‘Well, maybe I could do that.’

So, once his mother had been ruled out, I started talking to him about it, and he was like, ‘No, you can’t do that. That’s too much.’ And we had all the doctors telling us that we hadn’t been together long enough, and all of these things as to why it couldn’t happen. But eventually, I was pretty stubborn, and he was on dialysis.

So, eventually we got to the point, after a lot of fighting, pretty much, to happen, it was two years to the day that we met, that we were admitted to hospital for the kidney transplant.

Lisa: You gave him a kidney.

Karen: So, I gave him a kidney, yes. So, as my son tells everybody, David has three kidneys and I have one, because he has two that don’t work, and one of Mummy’s that does.

Lisa: So you had no qualms? Like, you just knew that this is what you had decided to do?

Karen: I did. Along the way, you know, you have a lot of people telling you, particularly the medical people telling you that if you do this then you’re not going to be able to have any more children. How are you going to feel if you do this and then he decides to leave you, or you break up? And all of these different things.

In my mind, it was like, this isn’t some way to try and trap him, or anything like that. This is just what we need to do, because dialysis was hard work. You know, he was going there four-to-five times a week, and would be there for anywhere between four and six hours at a time.

We’d be heading out there and dropping him off, and he’d be doing dialysis, and then we’d be going back to help him pack up. We knew doing that long-term, and waiting for a deceased donor, could take anywhere from straight away to five years.

We knew that, probably, trying to do that was not going to be sustainable with a three- or four-year-old child, he was four at the time. So, yes, that was what we decided, and I knew was going to be the best for all of us.

Lisa: I just think it’s miraculous, number one, that it can be done. Like, I still find it extraordinary. I’m a person who has ticked all of the-, you know, I want everything to be given when I die. Everything’s donated, no problems there, absolutely no issues around that. And I’ve made sure that everyone around me knows it.

But it’s a totally different thing to be alive and donate organs. Now that you’re part of that community, like, you’re part of a pretty exclusive club of people who have done this. What have you learnt about living organ donation?

Karen: Living organ donation, it’s still not hugely common, but it is getting more common. You probably learn more about organ donation as a whole whilst you’re doing it, because whilst you’re with somebody who needs one, you’re realising that so few people pass away in a way that means that their organs can actually be donated.

And so, therefore, the number of organs that become available each year are not that high. You know, there are lots of people who obviously indicate that they want to be organ donors, but so few people die in a way that actually means their organs can be used. So, waiting for that process is really hard work.

Lisa: Yes, I can imagine. So, what was it like for you? Is there a special program for organ donors? You know, what’s the process that you were put through?

Karen: Yes, so I had to do all the medical testing. I had to meet with a counsellor, I think, twice. Then I had to meet with the surgeons, so that they could quiz me about the process, and how much I knew about the process, and the risks involved in terms of the process. So, it’s pretty intensive, up until the point that you donate. But that’s, sort of, where things tend to stop.

Lisa: So, like, then that’s it? It’s like, ‘Thank you, and we’ve stitched you back up, and you’re off and away’? Did you have any weird feelings afterwards? Like, do you feel like there should be support for people afterwards?

Karen: Yes, definitely. Because even in the hospital, prior to the donating, the recipient is always the focus. Which, for me, was fine in terms of that, because obviously I wanted my then-partner to be better than he was.

I’d been given this idea, on one of the Facebook groups that I was on about living donors, that you feel like you’ve done your part and then you’re, sort of, left. Yes, it’s all a very emotional time when it’s all happening, and so you’re not sure whether it’s just the fact that you’ve had major surgery. And I’d never had any type of surgery before, so it was all a bit new to me, actually, even having surgery.

So, you don’t really know whether what you’re feeling is normal, or whether you’re just being really sensitive. Yes, so, I do think, having gone through it, that more follow-up support for donors would be helpful. Probably from people who have donated, because as much as all the medical people can give you all the medical know-how, and the counsellors can talk to you about it, they have no idea how you feel.

Lisa: Yes. There’s a Facebook group in that, totally, Karen, right now. Just saying. There’s totally a blog in it too, just, you know, thinking that we can talk. Okay, so tell me, now you guys are happily a dialysis-free unit, a little family of three, let’s talk about food. Let’s talk about what life was like for you before. Well, tell me about your journey with food, a little bit.

Karen: So, I’ve had, probably, a varied journey with food. I’ve done various diet programs, I’ve joined various gym programs where you’ve got eight weeks to change your life, or whatever. I’ve done various 1,200-calorie eating programs. Yes, so, pretty much everything. I’ve done Weight Watchers at home. You name it, I’ve pretty much done it, in terms of food.

None of those things meant that I had, probably, the greatest relationship with food. In our family, once we became a family of three, then my husband, even though he doesn’t admit it, he’s quite fussy. My son has always been a pretty good eater, but he’s picking up some of the fussiness that was introduced to us.

Up until this program, particularly last year, I was making up to three different meals a night. So, you know, was pretty much hating dinner time, and pretty much refined down meals to the same meal each week, each night. You know, there would be a rotation of seven things that each of us, sort of, would have bits and pieces of, and that would be the same.

My friends used to think it was the greatest joke ever that, you know, Monday night was steak and veggies, and Tuesday night was sausages, and Thursday nights were lamb cutlets. That never varied.

Lisa: In some ways, it’s genius, let me just say. Because I think a lot of people struggle all the time, thinking they’ve got to cook new things. But I can see how a repeating pattern like that, over a long period of time, might get tired, for sure. But I’m interested to know, at what point did you, kind of, sign on to all of those diets, or calorie-controlled stuff, or the gym stuff?

What was the underlying issue? Was it carrying a bit of extra weight, or was it just something that had always crept in, like, you ‘should’ be doing this? You know, what was actually really going on?

Karen: Yes, most of the time it was weight-related, for sure. You know, one was prior to my first marriage, and like all brides do, trying to work on that.

Lisa: That is a theme amongst Small Steppers. So many interviews. It’s like, ‘Yes, when I got married, when I got engaged, and I just thought, “Yep, okay, better do something about this.”’

Karen: Yes, totally. And then, other times, you know, some of the times it was because people at work were doing it, and I was like, ‘Yeah, I really need to do that, and if I’ve got support around me it will be easier.’ But it was normally around weight. Absolutely, for sure, to try and tone up. Yes, try and find a way that could make it easy and sustainable, achievable. But it never really seemed to make much difference long-term.

Lisa: So, what happens to your headspace, and your relationship with food? I guess there’s a lot of focus on it in those kind of regimes, and you kind of learn all these rules around food, what’s in, what’s out. You’re counting points, or you’re counting calories, or you’re portion controlling, those sorts of things. How do you feel like that affected you and your relationship with food?

Karen: To me, everything was guilt. Always. You know, you’d have one thing that didn’t follow the rules, and you’d feel guilty about it, and then you’d probably eat more things because you were feeling guilty. And so, you’d then just say, ‘Well, I can’t do that, it’s too hard.’

I’d be thinking about food all the time. Like, I would always be thinking about food. I’d be thinking about, ‘What did I just eat?’ and whether that was good enough. What should I eat next, and should I wait and not have a snack, or should I have a snack so then I don’t eat as much the next meal? Is that going to be okay, and is what I’m doing okay? Particularly when I was existing alone by myself.

‘Am I doing the right things for my son, am I doing the right things for me?’ When my husband was having dialysis, ‘Am I giving him the right foods? Is this what he needs for where he’s at?’ And so, everything about food was always that I had to be thinking about it all the time, and it was normally, I was feeling guilty about it.

Lisa: Wow. Like, that’s life, for so many people. And it’s so frightening that that can happen.

Karen: Yes, and it’s such a big part of your life. You obviously have to eat. So, yes, when it’s consuming all of your thoughts a lot of the time. And you’re not enjoying what you’re eating most of the time anyway, because it’s either what you feel you should, or you’re eating because it’s something that somebody else will eat, and so it’s just easier to make what they like so you don’t have to worry about something else for yourself.

Lisa: Okay, so let’s go back to this seven days a week thing, repetitive, everyone’s eating little bits of the certain meal. Tell me about some of the changes that you have made in your household, and what a difference this has made to you.

Karen: So, at the end of last year-, last year was a pretty stressful year for me. I had a stress-related eye condition, which doesn’t help when you’re an optometrist, and know stuff about eyes. And, you know, everyone around me was telling me, ‘You need to stress less about everything,’ and I’m like, ‘Yes, but everything is so stressful.’

So, I decided one of the things that I could change the most was not cooking three meals a night. You know, I was rushing home from work, and then trying to do a quick meal for my son, so he could get to bed, and then doing the other one or two meals for my husband and I after work.

So, I sat down and had a chat to them. I was doing the additive course through the Sistermixin girls, so we had a bit of a chat about, you know, that I was doing some stuff to try and work out which foods might be healthier for us than other foods. And that some of the things that we had in packets weren’t always so great for us.

Then, after that meeting, we then had another one where I said, ‘It’s really hard for me to be making different meals each night, and so we need to be sitting down together more. So, I’m going to look at making the same meal for us, only making one meal a night, and trying different things.’ So that we wouldn’t just be having the same things again.

And that there would be, probably, things that none of us liked, and there would be things that, maybe, one of us liked, or whatever, but we would all try them. And if we all liked something then we would add it to the things that we liked, and we’d have it again. And if we decided that it wasn’t one of the things, that we wouldn’t have it again. But I got agreement from both of the boys that we would at least try each thing, and see how we went.

Lisa: I love this so much. Do you know why? Because I reckon they probably would have been cool with that for quite a while, but it often takes us putting boundaries around what is okay for us. You know, we try to be all things to all members of our family, and great workers, and this and that. And at the end of the day, we’re just stressed out.

So, for you to be able to go, ‘This isn’t cool for me any more, and these are the reasons why.’ It was actually all that needed to happen, because they’re, like, ‘Sounds good. Okay, bit weird, but I’ll go with you. These seem like logical reasons.’ And your son’s old enough to not have a tantrum about it, and whatever. And really, it was just the change needed to come from within you, to put those boundaries around what was cool, and what was not any more.

Karen: Yes, because I think I was maybe hoping that they’d suddenly say to me, ‘Oh, you really don’t have to cook three meals for us. You know, we’ll just start eating the same thing,’ which obviously was never going to happen. So, I needed to say, ‘Right, this is what I need for me. I know that I’m going to be doing the best for you guys, so let’s just make this happen.’

Lisa: And now they’re even cooking a meal?

Karen: And now, yes. So, probably about a month ago, I sat them down. My husband finishes early on a Thursday to pick up my son from school, and I said, ‘You know, you guys have got a few hours on an afternoon, on a Tuesday, and I’m still at work, and I’m still getting home and rushing around and cooking dinner. So, I think you guys should start doing a meal a week.’

So, we’ve started with very simple things, and simple things that they don’t need to do very much. So, just little bits, marinating some chicken wings with the honey tamari mix. You know, a very basic sort of crumbed chicken. So, little bits and pieces that they’re getting there, and they’re just so proud of themselves when they’ve done it, which has been the best thing.

My son was so funny, the first night that they did something, he took a photo of it, and he goes, ‘Mum, I need to download these photos, because I’m going to write a food blog.’

Lisa: Oh my God, bless his heart! Yes, yes, you are.

Karen: So, we’re still trying to get what this food blog will look like, but he’s desperate that he wants to do his own food blog, and tell people what he’s making for dinner.

Lisa: He’s pretty much my hero right now. So, anything he needs, I’ll give him a hand. This has to happen. There has to be a YouTube channel, as well, because I want to see his cuteness on video. And you can just tell him that I’ll help him out.

I love that so much, because what you have actually done, by standing in your truth, and putting boundaries around what’s cool for you, is you’ve actually empowered them, and empowered him, in such a huge way. It’s just actually quite crazy, when you think about it, how everything starts to flow once we can honour ourselves.

Karen: Yes, and it’s doing so much for the both of them. I’m still blown away, they did a pasta dish two weeks ago, and my husband goes, ‘I’ve never actually cooked pasta before,’ and I’m like, ‘Oh, I don’t even know how this is possible.’ So I was like, ‘Part of this is me.’ I said, ‘I just need you two to know that if I’m not at home, you can actually make a decent meal for you two, rather than having to get take-away or something else.’

So, yes, trying to instil the skills. And particularly my son, thinking that when you’re no longer at home, in ten or so years, that you’re going to have these group of recipes that you’re happy to just make, and do, and it’s been second-nature because you’ve done it for so long.

Lisa: Oh my God, you’re amazing, and I reckon every single mum is now just going, ‘Man, I’m going to do this. I’m going to start this.’ It’s so inspiring to hear these stories, I can’t even tell you. So, you went for a long time probably not looking at recipe blogs, or opening up books, because you were just in your zone of creating what they’re going to eat. So, what’s it been like to get creative, for you, around food?

Karen: Well, I used to love cooking. Before I met my first husband, I used to love baking, and trying different recipes, and things like that, but it just all got so hard that it was just easier not to bother even looking. You know, I’d got rid of all my cookbooks and everything like that. Occasionally, I’d see recipes and things like that, and it would be like, ‘No, somebody in the house doesn’t like that, so don’t even bother,’ in terms of it. So, yes, it’s been interesting.

Certainly having my Thermomix made things a bit easier, in terms of knowing that there are heaps of things to look at that aren’t really that difficult to do. And obviously your program, Lisa, has made a huge difference, because some of the recipes that we’re using from Small Steps are amazing, and are so easy. I’m gradually working them up towards more of those.

Some of the things that they’re eating. You know, my son’s favourite meal is butter chicken, by far. There’s no way, six months ago, that I would have been feeding either of them butter chicken.

Lisa: That is so good. They should totally try my chicken and feta patties. It’s just a bit of grating, they could definitely make those.

Karen: Yes, we will totally move onto-, yes, we’re just taking very little-,

Lisa: Yes, I know, but that’s the thing. I think that that’s the cool thing, though. That’s what I always say, that’s why I freaking call everything ‘small steps’ because if you set the bar too high, and you start looking around at what other people are doing, and thinking, ‘What? Okay, shivers, that’s what I need to be doing,’ then you’re just setting yourself up for big-time failure. It’s okay, and it actually should take time for us to change these habits so that they stick.

You know, expecting anything more from ourselves, and from the people who we live with. Like, it’s fine for us to go, ‘Cutting out gluten and dairy, and I am going off blah blah, and I’m basically going to just eat avocado,’ or something. And that’s all fine, like, we can do what we want for ourselves, but taking other people along on the journey is a whole other ballgame.

We can be as inspired as we want. We can do the online courses. You know, when I did my course, I’m saying to Nick, ‘You know, I just think we can’t eat this anymore.’ He’s like, ‘What do you mean, we can’t have Lamingtons on Australia Day?’ I’m like, ‘Yeah, it’s a bit sad, isn’t it? Okay, I’m just going to find ones that don’t have any of this, this, this, and this.’ And it’s like, the life was getting sucked out of him. I just realised that I might feel certain things about food, but he’s got his own journey, on his own. And that’s totally cool.

Karen: Yes, and I’ve had to totally step back a few times with my husband, who is, yes, coming along with this. He’s certainly eating a whole lot more variety of food than he ever has before. And still says to me, ‘You know, I’m a grown-up and I can choose to eat whatever I want to eat.’ And I have to respect the fact that, yes, that is the case.

You know, we have wins along the way. So, we’ve discovered raw capsicum is good. So, I just keep just trying little bits.

Lisa: Yes, nice. I mean, do you ever pull the kidney card? Do you ever, kind of, like, ‘Well, if you don’t eat this, I’ll have my kidney back’?

Karen: No. No, and that was something that we discussed very early on. Our friends are always saying, ‘Yes, but you can’t actually say that, because she gave you a kidney.’ But no, that very rarely gets-, the only time I ever pull the kidney card is on our kidneyversary, and one year he forgot it was our kidneyversary, and I pulled the kidney card then. But apart from that, no.

Lisa: Yes. What does he give you, each year, for your kidney? What’s a kidneyversary gift?

Karen: We just, you know, remember the fact that it happened. He always says to me, ‘There’s nothing that I could ever do, or give you, that could ever even come close to you giving me a kidney.’

The fact that I see him every day, and we can go on holidays. Like, last year we went to America, which is something that he’d always wanted to do, but we knew that we could have never done if he hadn’t have had the transplant. And so, just being able to do those bits and pieces, and being able to do it all together. You know, that’s all I need, to see that everything was worth it.

Lisa: You’re amazing, honestly. I would be asking for something. That’s just me, but I love Nick, I do. But in saying that, I think for the first six years of marriage, we forgot our anniversary every single year. We’d get a text from my mum going, ‘Hey guys, happy anniversary,’ and we’d both look at each other and go, ‘Shit! I love you.’ ‘Yep, I love you.’

Karen: Well, we did get married, and he always said that he was never going to get married. So, maybe that was the exchange for the kidney.

Lisa: He sounds like a lovely man, and you know I’m only having a joke. I think that you guys are both absolutely, totally, fabulous. So, to finish up all podcasts, I always ask my guests if they have any small steps. Tips, that they might recommend to other people who, I guess, they might be far along on their health journey, they might be just at the start of their journey. But from you, what would you say has made a big difference to you? What’s a small step that you would recommend?

Karen: Mine is just looking locally around you, and what you can find in your area. You know, I’ve been amazed with all the things that I can actually get really close by. I can get organic spelt flour, cheaper, rolled three days ago, than what I can buy from the supermarket. So, when you can get amazing things around you, then just search for the stuff.

The organic rolled oats that we now get, the packet tells me they were rolled out two days ago, rather than, maybe, two years ago that the ones on the shelves are. I’ve had to adjust cooking them, because they’re a bit different to cook. But things like that, that we can get so easily, close to us.

I think there are some things in Tazzy that we struggle a little bit with, but in terms of a lot of things down here, then yes, we’re pretty lucky. And there are lots of people on the foodie journey down here. So, it’s pretty easy to find things if you, sort of, start looking.

Lisa: I absolutely love that. And I realise that we just didn’t close off, I guess, that whole ‘guilt’ feeling that you had around food. How are you with that, these days?

Karen: Yes, I don’t think about it. You know, we were away for the weekend, and there were various bits and pieces there, and I didn’t even question whether I should have it, or should I feel guilty after I’ve eaten a chocolate biscuit, or whatever. It was like, you know what, we’re here to have an awesome weekend with the family, and that’s part of it, for us.

So, yes, I think about it in terms of planning meals, in terms of what we’re going to have for the week, but I’m not thinking about how that fits in. And, you know, ‘If I had that for dinner, what should I have for lunch the next day?’ Or anything like that.

I’m just concentrating on, ‘What’s the best that we can eat?’ at that time, and what are the new things that we’re probably going to try together? Even though I’m doing a lot more with it, I feel like it’s so much easier.

Lisa: That’s so awesome. Jude Blereau talks about it so beautifully, when she talks about food nourishing us on so many different levels. I really do think that that is the case. It feeds our physical body, but it also feeds our spirit, our soul, whatever that, sort of, part of us is. It’s a way to connect with people, it should be joyous.

It’s not always going to be, let’s face it. Sometimes dinner just needs to bloody well get up on the table. But I don’t know, I feel like our cultures kind of miss the point, with the fast food, and the connection, I guess, that it can bring to people.

Karen: Yes, and we’ve got quick and easy things that we can get on the table, rather than having to resort to something in a packet, or takeaway. And there are times that we do resort to takeaway, but I don’t even worry about that, because I think, ‘You know what, that’s what we need right now, and that’s what’s going to make all of our lives better.’ And tomorrow, you know, we’ll have something that’s different.

Lisa: Oh gosh, yes. Oh my gosh, you’re just like the ultimate Small Steps grad. Like, the holding onto the stress around food, holding onto the guilt, that’s just going to be worse for us in the long run. And it leads us down this path of being on, or off, with healthy eating. And then once that starts to happen, then all sorts of self-sabotage, and all sorts of nasty voices in our head take over.

It doesn’t give our bodies the chance to tell us, and us to just tap into what it needs next. You know, if we just come from that place. That’s what I do. I’m like, ‘Okay, that didn’t feel too good. Okay, well the next meal is just going to be this.’ Or, I just find myself, and it’s so weird to say, but I find myself thinking about food a lot less when I haven’t put rules around it. And I’m glad to hear that that’s the case for you, too.

Karen: Yes, for sure. I think about it so much less. And I think my example for my son is so much better now than it was, in terms of trying to restrict what came into the house. His attitude, I think, to food, long-term, is going to be far better than if I’d continued in our very regimented way.

Lisa: Well, we’re just trying the best that we can in the moment. So, whatever I’ve done in the past, or whatever I’m about to do tomorrow, I’m just forgiving myself all the way, because at least we’re trying.

So, I am so rapt that you have taken the time out, and we’ll just tell everyone, slightly delayed start. Totally my fault. I thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I think it’s fascinating, I think you’re an amazing woman, and you’ve got a lot to share. So, use that voice. Get your son on bloody YouTube and get him a blog, and then you start a support group for organ donors, and it’s happy days!

Karen: Will do. Will do.

Lisa: Oh gosh, I just think everyone has a message, and everyone should be sharing stuff. It’s an actual disease of mine. But thank you. I know 100% that you will have made a difference in the lives of the listeners today, so thank you so much, Karen.

Karen: Thanks, Lisa.

Lisa: Speak soon.

In this episode, Gemma from the Small Steps Membership community talks about her journey with food – from weight loss programs that hurt more than they helped, to leaky gut, to discovering how much stress can impact your digestive system.

Want to learn more about the Small Steps Membership? Check it out here: https://smallstepsliving.com/ssl/

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Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: :Welcome to the Small Steps Living Podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Corduff, bringing you inspiring stories to help you transform your life, one small step at a time. Here at Small Steps Living, we’re keeping it real, kick back and enjoy the show.

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Podcast and I must apologise. I’ve been a little bit snotty, so if I sound a bit nasally today, please forgive me.

I’m sitting here and I’m pretty thrilled to be talking to another small stepper today. Here name is Gemma McPhee and she’s been around the traps for a little while and I think you’re going to really enjoy her story especially if your someone who can get a little uptight and anxious if things aren’t feeling organised or if your someone who got into this whole healthy eating thing through one of the more mainstream weight loss programs, but you’ve learned a lot about food and yourself since then, I think she’s got some really great stuff to share on that.

We’ll also be talking about what it means to your body when you remove some of the things that are making it feel quite unwell and that’s just not your normal processed food junk, its other things as well.

So, I’ve just rambled on here and I haven’t even welcomed you, Gemma. Welcome to the Podcast.

Gemma: Thanks, Lisa. I don’t mind you rambling. That’s fine.

Lisa: : We’ve decided we’re gonna have a rambly chat, so guys, settle in.

Gemma: Yes.

Lisa: : First of all, can you just tell us where you’re dialling in from today, Gemma.

Gemma: Okay, so I live near a little place called Valley in WA. It’s about four, four-and-a-half hours southeast of Perth on Route to Esperance.

Lisa: It actually surprises me how many small steppers are from WA and also how many small steppers are from regional areas and I wonder if that’s because you guys, you can’t go and attend the events or do those sorts of things that you might be able to in a city. You’ve got to go online to get access to the information that you need.

Gemma: Definitely, yep. Yeah, that’s right, it is hard. I do try to, when there are events on, I do try to schedule Perth trips around those so I can go to them but definitely when the internet is working, online is great. So yeah, that’s pretty well how I have learnt what I’ve learnt. I research online and yeah.

Lisa: So tell us a little bit about how you grew up because I know so many of us we’re all kind of the same vintage, I guess, but I love hearing about what your food culture or what food was like for you growing up because I think that does inform how we end up when we have kids of our own. So tell us a little bit about it.

Gemma: Yes. Okay, so I grew up on a farm as well, which was a bit closer to Perth. My mom, my dad, and my two sisters and I would say we had a pretty good diet. We had the standard diet. Mom made everything from scratch, like all the slices, all the cakes, making three-veg type casseroles and all that. I do sort of remember, as I got a bit older, more of the convenience foods sneaking in, like little packets of chips and the little multi packs of chocolate and I remember on TV as well, lots of ads. Like I still can remember those songs from those ads and I just think it was a time when the convenience food was becoming a big thing and I don’t really remember. I don’t think those ads are around as much anymore because people are so used to having them they don’t really need to promote it, if that makes sense … but anyway, I’m rambling.

Lisa: That’s interesting. Yeah, no, it has just become part of what food is, whereas back then it was like, “Hey, mums. You’re back at work and the kids are busy, here, just chop up some chicken, throw in this mix, make some rice and you’ve got Chinese.

Gemma: It was exciting, yes, the Chinese.

Lisa: It was exciting.

Gemma: Yes, I remember my mom being excited about that because she loved Chinese. Yeah, I remember those things and we thought it was exciting. It was so exciting to have all these things that we never used to have. So anyway, they crept in.

When I finished primary school, because I lived in a small town as well, I went to boarding school so I didn’t have my parents around me every day to help me make those good food choices and I don’t actually think that they were really well modelled while I was away at school. There was obviously healthy food choices but no one was actually monitoring what you were eating and if you were eating fruit and there was vending machines there so if you had change and you’d walk down to the shops. So bad habits sort of crept in there and they probably stayed with me for a really long time, until I was probably mid-20s.

I was overweight and things didn’t really change for me until I got engaged to my husband, Kurt, and I thought, “Oh, I need to lose weight, nothing like a proposal to motivate you. And I remember always wanting to eat healthy but I just could never do it. I don’t know why I couldn’t. I didn’t have the motivation or the willpower, whatever it was. I remember thinking I want to be healthy but I hadn’t formed those good habits to really know what being healthy could do for me.

So anyway, when I got engaged, I signed up to one of those weight loss programs that they provide all the food for you and it really does make me cringe now because just what is in some of those things is not ideal. They’re very processed and just not great but it did do for me was it did teach me how to eat properly in that it taught me how to eat a balanced diet. So you eat breakfast, you eat lunch or you have snacks and you add salad to your meals and this and that. So it did teach me that and I lost weight and I started feeling really good because I was eating more often and I was eating like including fresher foods into my diet, I was eating fruit, I was eating more veggies . That’s probably the first time I really made the connexion of how eating healthy can make you fell better even though I didn’t really think I felt bad to begin with.

Lisa: Yes, that’s always interesting, that moment when you’re like, “What? What have I been putting up with? Hang on a minute. This is a whole new world.”

Gemma: So it’s amazing. You don’t think you feel bad until you go on that little journey, I guess, and then you’re sort of like, “Oh, I actually feel really good. I haven’t felt like this before,” or “I haven’t felt like this in a long time.” So, yeah, I finally made that link and yeah, although like I said, I don’t really like … now I’m getting stuck for my words but those companies are great in that they help people but it kinda goes against my grain now. It’s not fresh food. You know what I mean?

Lisa: Yeah.

Gemma: But it helped me in a period in my life and I still got something from it, it taught me something.

Lisa: Well, I can’t tell you how many people that I speak to and how many small steppers there have been over the years who started off by doing something that was either one of those weight loss programs that sort of woke them up to the connection between food and lots of other things that are going on, but then, because of what they started to learn and uncover, they’re like, “Well, I don’t want to be having the fat-free version of the … or hang on, this doesn’t make sense to me anymore,” or they put the weight back on and then they’re like, “Well, hang on. This just isn’t sustainable, but I’ve had a taste of what it feels like to be good or to be at a healthy weight,” or there’s been a lot of people who skipped that and went to the kind of clean eating or paleo or something like that and then thought that that was great but found it hard to maintain again and also couldn’t introduce it to all of their family, so they’re looking for something a bit more balanced.

So, yeah, we all need a point at which our eyes open up and I think whatever that is, it’s fine and then you just keep on finding your way. You just keep moving forward.

Gemma: Yes, yep, absolutely. Like I said, it helped me at a point in time in my life and it started my journey really. I would never, if I wanted to lose weight now, I would never go down that track but, yeah, it was good for me at the time and it helped me to make that link.

Lisa: Yeah, I think that’s awesome. So compared to what you were eating then in the glory days when your mind, we just got no idea and then to where you are now. Where would you say some big shifts have happened for you?

Gemma: I just stopped buying because when I was doing the weight loss programs, you couldn’t really buy packets of chips or chocolates. I was on a bit of a strict diet. So doing that, it stopped me from buying those things that I would bring home often and before that I was bringing home those pre-made jars of things, whatever, but it was gradual, but I would say after I did that weight loss programs, I really started making things from scratch and probably as well, which is like a lot of people that follow your pages, I’ve noticed when you have your first trial and all of sudden realising they’re watching you and you’re like, “I can’t eat that cause I don’t want them to eat that.”

Obviously where I live we have long distances to travel so even after my weight loss journey I’d still occasionally buy things like lollies or whatever, you know, just to get you through. And then my little boy being at the point where he could have food and him wanting it and it just gave me that realisation and I was like, “I don’t want him to have this so he can’t see me having it. So I can’t buy these things anymore,” and I just stopped buying it over time and it became normal.

Now my fridge and my pantry pretty much consists of whole foods and any packaged foods I buy, I try to buy the best I can. So if I’m buying something in a tin like coconut cream or whatever, I buy the one that doesn’t have things added to it. It is more expensive but I feel better knowing that it is just coconut cream in there. Yeah, so when I’m buying packaged foods, I try to buy the best quality that there is.

I still do buy things that aren’t that great for me but I think my relationship with food now is a bit better now that I can not binge on it. So I’ll buy chocolate but I don’t have to eat the whole block. I have a better relationship with food now. And following your pages as well, Lisa, I think before I came across you, I did use to beat myself up a bit, like I would be trying to, “I’m not right. I’m gonna eat healthy,” and then I’d do something and then I’d eat a chocolate or do something and I thought, “Oh, I can’t do this. I’m starting again tomorrow.”

Or I’d be like, “Im starting again on Monday,” and it would only be Tuesday but I’d wipe out the whole week because I’d be like, “I have to start on a Monday,” but now I just sort of realise that I’m not perfect and I do the best that I can do and if I want to have a treat while I’m out or if I feel like buying the chocolate to have with a cup of tea then that’s okay because life is for living.

Yeah, I just realised that placing too many restrictions on myself wasn’t really healthy. It made me put myself down, I guess, if I hadn’t followed it strictly.

Lisa: This is one of my biggest things. I am so, so … yeah, people come into Small Steps and we can talk about food till the cows come home and we do but if we’re not also talking about how to be kind to ourselves and how to sort of “sh” down that voice and how to accept imperfection and how guilt should really play no part in a healthy life, then we’re getting somewhere because … I just see so many women and what we know about stress now as well and what it does to the body, we just can’t keep ourselves anxious about something that is meant to be nourishing, which is food.

Gemma: With the guilt thing, this lady that I see. She does energy healing type of stuff and she said to me, and I just remember all the time now and she’s like, “Gemma, guilt is a useless feeling.” She’s like, “You can feel anything else, do not feel guilty.” “Feel happy, feel sad, but don’t feel guilty because it’s damaging and it does last. The feeling of guilt lasts so much longer than those other feelings.” I was like, “Oh.” So I always try to remember that now especially when it comes to food. I’m like, “Don’t feel bad about it. Just get back on track and do the best that you can do.”

Lisa: Yep, I love that. I love that idea that … I think mother guilt and food guilt are the two biggies for so many woman who are on this path of wanting to improve the food that they’re eating and also have kids and guilt can be everywhere. I loved that cause I think I remember sharing it in Small Steps to Whole Foods, you don’t have to wait until the next day or the next week or the next month or the new year in order to make a change because what your body probably really wants is just a great meal next. If you do that, then awesome, then you’re actually … and you know the whole back on track or falling off the wagon.

Gemma: You feel better.

Lisa: Yeah, you feel immediately better. I wanted you to talk a little bit about what has made a difference in terms of … I guess the guilt is one thing but also overwhelm that a lot of people can feel when it comes to trying to remove the packets which, you know, easy and convenient and if it’s what we know, it’s a big change to move over. What has helped you in terms of managing that anxiety or the overwhelm around food?

Gemma: Just like whole mantra really, like keeping it simple. I used to try and … I got all these recipes book and I tried to make it more complicated than it had to be. There so many beautiful cookbooks out there but so many of the recipes in there are so complex and I think I would get overwhelmed trying to eat healthy but really all I had to do was put some veggies on the plate with some protein or something.

Lisa: Yes.

Gemma: You know what I mean. It’s just for so long I don’t know why I tried to do that. You’d see the fantastic pictures and you’d be like, “I have to eat this,” all the different ingredients but you don’t have to really. Just, yeah, like keep it simple and just try to eat veggies and buy good meat, yeah, that’s all I can really say about that.

Lisa: Yeah, I think that that’s totally perfect but I’m guessing also if you live quite remotely you wouldn’t be able to pop down to the shops every day so organising your food, I would say, would be a big thing as well?

Gemma: Yes, yep, definitely. I have to, when I’m being good as such, I’m really proud of myself when I do a menu plan but it doesn’t always happen so I do get a local veggie order every week from our shop which is really good. I just put down what I want to order and they do their best to get it for me. When I go away I do, cause our shop doesn’t have everything, when I go away, I try to stock up on the pantry items. So I try to plan in advance for that and just things that I know I’m gonna use all the time like chickpeas or coconut cream or tin tomatoes and things like that.

Lisa: Yep, I think that you’ll be looking forward to the kitchen reset that’s coming in the membership. It’s gonna be perfect for you.

Gemma: Yeah, that will be really good.

Lisa: Yeah, I’m just saying. Okay, can we just talk quickly about what you discovered about six months ago, how shithouse you were feeling and how you ended up getting through that. I think that this is really cool for people to hear.

Gemma: Okay, so yeah, about six months ago I would say, I was just feeling really, really awful. I felt nauseous all the time. I was having trouble swallowing, which was concerning me. I was like, “What is going on?” I actually felt like my food was getting stuck, so when I swallowed, I felt like I had to swallow again but it didn’t actually help and I went and saw my naturopath and had some blood tests and everything done and came back that I had severely low iron and they tested me for celiac disease and that came back negative, thank goodness because that just really freaked me out cause you know with celiac you have to be so careful. Anyway, I had the gene but I don’t have celiac disease, thankfully.

Lisa: All right.

Gemma: So I had some testing, I think they call it hemaview testing and I was told that I had leaky gut and had a gluten intolerance and I also learnt that when you develop something like leaky gut that’s when these issues can happen and with the gluten I also didn’t realise that having an intolerance could also cause you to not absorb things like iron and other nutrients in your food. I had … that’s right, I’m just remembering back to my doctor’s appointment now. My nails had ridges on them like these horizontal, not all of them, just some of them and the GP that works out of the same place is the naturopath and she was like, “That can be caused from nutrient deficiency.” So I was actually not getting the … I was eating all the right foods, I thought, but I wasn’t absorbing any of the nutrients from them because I had this gluten intolerance. My body was just reacting to everything.

I’d had a really stressful year. My mom had passed away earlier last year and I really do believe in that mind/body connection, that the stress and emotions and how it can affect your gut health and general health issues. So I had a really stressful year and all this stuff sort of came about. My body was under stress.

Anyway, so I went off gluten. I tried to do that before when I thought I was feeling fine. You know, when all the paleo stuff came out, I’m like, “I can do this,” and I never really could quite stick to it but when you feel so horrible and the doctor and the naturopath actually say, “You have a gluten intolerance,” I stuck to it. It took me a month or two to start feeling better and for that feeling in my throat to go away and I just kept feeling better and better. At times, I would try, I would just be like, “I’m not intolerant,” and I’d just try a sliver of something and I would just react really badly with tummy pains, but over time I think my gut has healed and it probably still needs some ongoing work but I can now have a little bit without feeling too bad but I know that if I push it too far, it’s not great because straight away that reflux thing comes back with my throat.

I just think it’s amazing how just by altering my diet and cutting out those triggers, I was able to feel better and that’s without no medication at all. I know that taking medication doesn’t sit well with me and I know that there are occasions where people need that, but for me, I didn’t feel like I was … I don’t know, maybe I was bad enough to need reflux medication but I was happy to give it a go just through diet and I’m glad I did because yeah, I just feel so much better. You know, you can think that you’re eating something that’s good for you but it was not really helping me at all.

Lisa: First of all, I’m so sorry about your mum. I can’t imagine losing my mum so I’m really sorry for you for that. Yeah, we’re gonna have these moments in our lives where things are just stressful. No matter all the deep breathing or the things we can do, there’s gonna be moments that are kind of amped up and that would definitely be one and I’m really sorry you lost her, but I also think that it’s just totally amazing that you did take the route of healing through food because I think we’re in a culture that just really does want the quick fix or we’re used to medicating because we’re still not connected to that idea that our bodies want to be healthy well. They want to be in balance all the time.

If we’re not and if there’s something going wrong than we can fix it by putting a bandaid on it or we can do a little digging and find out what’s really going on. I think that, for me, this is a constant work in progress.

Sometimes you just don’t know who to believe or what to believe but I do remember quirky Joe saying once that she thought our health journeys were a bit like peeling the layers of an onion. You start with the crappy outside bit, real crusty and you can take that off and that’s easy to remove and then you might just think, “Hang on. What’s underneath here?” Then you take off another and then you just keep going and you can’t know what’s underneath that other layer until you literally go and take it off. I love that analogy because it also makes it okay if you do just want to stay an onion with the crusty layer on, that’s okay. Some people do want to take and peel off the layers and some people don’t but I feel like every time I do, every time I do a little bit of digging, I find out something that actually empowers me and makes that path to …

For example, with this cold that just quite suddenly came on, I would have told myself that that was going to be sinus. So my brain is already then going, “Okay, we’ve got sinus,” and I do believe there is part of us that’s always like our bodies are listening to what our mind says. Then I probably would have been going down to take the sinus medication and taking the stuff to help me sleep at night and then help me throughout the day to just get through it, but instead I’m like, “Well my body is just gonna feel this,” and I supported myself through taking some vitamins that I know help me and rubbing oils all over, magnesium.

Gemma: You know its interesting as well how you said about the sinus type thing. That is one thing that I noticed over time. When I went off gluten, I could breathe again and it was just really weird. I remember reading that, yeah, in other people’s posts or something on Facebook and then it wasn’t until it happened to me, I was like, “Yes, I always felt like I had a stuffy nose,” and I have noticed when because lately I sort of thought, “Oh, yeah, I’ve healed my gut. I can some more gluten.” Straight away it’s … so it might not always … and with gluten intolerance. I guess there is a bit of a trend out there at the moment so there’s a lot of people that don’t take it seriously, it doesn’t always come about as tummy aches and tummy cramps or whatever, your body can react in ways like that as well.

Lisa: I can remember interviewing Jules Galloway, the naturopath, on intolerances and how they can show up especially in kids and adults of course and the way that she explained it, she’s like, “If your kids always snotty, if they’re just constantly got runny noses, it’s because clearing that nasal passageway is not an essential function to live. It’s just not. But if you are constantly eating something that is putting your body on high alert and your body thinks that there is something in there that’s a danger to it and it’s trying to fight it off with an immune response, it’s gonna let go some of the things that just aren’t necessary in that moment and it can often be a sign if you’re constantly congested.” She was talking about with kids having constantly runny noses, that maybe your body doesn’t actually think that it’s really important to do that while it’s off fighting this invader, which could be something like gluten or whatever it is. I thought that that was a really interesting way. I’d never heard it explained that way. I loved it.

It’s exactly what we were saying before with you reflux. It’s like, “What is my body trying to tell me here?” Now I can feel the difference between, “Okay, I just gotta let my body do its thing, give it a chance to fight.” What it really wants to do here is rest so it can just do what it needs to do, whereas the old Lisa would have just taken drugs to keep powering through.

Gemma: Yeah, and what you were saying just before with the food, once you actually … five years ago, I would not have even noticed many of the symptoms that I experience now but once you starting healthy and your body sort of recovers a bit and your gut heals. I only have to have maybe a day of not making the best choices and I can already feel that it’s not ideal for my body, like I just crave the whole foods. So when you make the switch and you start including healthier foods into your diet, you crave it more. Like I said earlier, I always wanted to be healthy and I couldn’t quite get there but once you’re actually are in it and you’re feeling the effects of it, it’s hard, well, for me, I could never really go back to that way cause I just know that I feel so much better with what I’m feeding my body now.

Lisa: I’m exactly the same as you. Why am I so grumpy? Why is my brain so foggy? Oh, oops, might have been that Easter egg or … I notice it definitely when my sugar intake goes up or if I’m having too much gluten, for sure and dairy just tires me out. So we just include really small amounts and yeah, but this is the thing. It’s cool to be on the journey but it’s also important to remember that our bodies do have also have brilliant ways at helping us either know something is wrong or filter the stuff through the, you know what? It’s sometimes just gonna be eaten, well it is at least in my world. So yeah, just being able to relax. I’m going to remember what your energy healer said about guilt as well.

To finish up, I would love for you to share, if you have, I always ask every guest, if they have any small steps that they would offer to people listening to this Podcast to just help them along on their journey. What would you recommend?

Gemma: I would probably just try to just make better choices. When you’re at the supermarket and you are reaching for a packet, I’d just try to really quickly scan over them and just try to get ones without any additives or preservatives. There’s a good app called Chemical Maze, which a lot of people are aware of now but if you’re not sure of something you can put it in there and it tells you whether this is good or bad or whatever.

For me, I try, I really try not to buy much from those isles anymore. I still have to living where I live because I can’t always get an abundance of fresh food but I’d say, yeah, just choose foods with no additives or preservatives and like I was saying before, if you don’t make a great choice one day just focus on making a better choice next time you go to eat something and yeah, don’t beat yourself up over things cause I used to do that a lot and now I just don’t really care in some ways. I’m kinda of like, “Oh, well, I did that, wasn’t the best choice but it’s the choice I made at the time and I need to let that go now.”

Lisa: I love it. I just love them. It’s not as though I’m not going to have my brother-in-laws at Easter.

Gemma: Exactly.

Lisa: I’m just going to say yes to that. Just a caveat that I am not a naturopath or a nutritionist or a dietician or anything like that, so don’t take my word for it. I just love sharing real life stories about people who want to do, who are really looking to improve.

Also when I read about your story, it was also that you just made this connection between not necessarily the right food for weight loss but the right food for feeling good, feeling healthy. I think when you make that switch in your head and when you just align with the why that is immediate, we immediately feel better if we have a beautiful big, huge salad for lunch with something yummy, some delicious chicken left over from the night before or something, as compared to vegemite on toast. We will feel the effects immediately and instead of thinking, “Well, well done. That was that many calories and that would have been that many calories and great. I guess that I’ve gotta check that I’ve lost the weight today or tomorrow. Well I didn’t. Well, see, what’s the point in eating healthy?” It’s just that horrible cycle whereas if you’re like, “Well that just made me feel great. I had energy all afternoon,” then there’s your why. I think you’ve connected with that quite deeply and it makes it easier to make the good decisions.

Gemma: Yeah, it definitely started out as a weight loss thing for me but it’s a health thing for me now, like I’ve crossed. It would be nice to ship some weight away but I actually, especially with health issues in my family, it’s more about giving my body what it needs and using food as medicine to prevent issues in the future, I guess. It’s more about, yeah, health for me now as opposed to … it was a long journey but I got there and I found my way.

Lisa: Oh, I love it. I love it. I really do. I think that it’s a really great message and it’s important to share that you can get there. I think for some people who are still at the other end of the spectrum that that kind of is almost like utopia for all the people. So I really loved and appreciated you sharing your story today, Gemma, and I can’t wait to get it out there.

Gemma: Yeah, I’m a bit of a rambler so I hope it comes across okay.

Lisa: Well, I mean, I think you know me by now that I’m a big fan of the ramble.

Gemma: Thank you. Thank you so much. It was nice chatting to you.

Lisa: Yeah, thank you. All right, we’ll get back to our families.

Gemma: Yes.

Lisa: Have a great day and thanks so much, Gemma.

In this episode, Claire Cameron from the Small Steps community talks about her journey from PCOS diagnosis to pregnancy. She discusses food, natural therapies (including acupuncture, TCM and chiropractic), exploring your options, and figuring out what’s right for you and your body.

You can learn more about the Small Steps Membership here: https://smallstepsliving.com/ssl/

Subscribe to the weekly podcast on iTunes or Stitcher

Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the podcast. I’ve got someone here today who I’ve gotten to know in Small Steps, but I’ve also been stalking her a little bit online, because she has her own blog, and Facebook page, and she does lots of videos. So, I’m really excited to be talking to her in real life. Feel like I know you Claire. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

Claire: Hi Lisa, thank you very much.

Lisa: Today we’re going to be talking about quite a few things. When I asked you Small Steppers to share your story, I get a bit of a background, and there are a few things that stood out from your story, that I think would be really great to talk about.

So, guys, we’re going to be touching on things like growing up as a fussy eater yourself, I think that was really, really interesting. And definitely would love to chat to you a bit more about the fertility issues that you had, and finding out that you had PCOS.

Then, I thought that also, the part about food shaming was really interesting. How family and friends react when we decide to go down a path that’s a bit different to the norm. And then, I think, we’re definitely going to have to talk about ‘no quick fixes’ and what it’s like following experts when you’re trying to learn about all of this stuff. So, look, clearly it’s just going to be a five- or six-minute chat! So, can you just share a little bit about your food journey growing up? I loved hearing about that.

Claire: Alright. Well, started off, apparently I ate absolutely everything, and my mum was amazing. She cooked us, you know, liver, and brains. I don’t know where she did all her research, because back then there probably wasn’t all the information there is now, but she fed us absolutely everything, and I ate it all, until I was two.

Round about two, she said I just shut my mouth, and refused to eat anything other than chicken, carrot, cabbage, potato, white bread, sausages, and that was about it. My poor mother, she said she stressed, and stressed, and stressed, and then eventually she just-, oh, and apple. She just gave up, and fed me what I would eat.

Mum’s an amazing cook, so I actually missed out on a lot of food. My sister ate anything and everything. Younger sister, but yes, I continued on that for probably until I was about seventeen, I’m embarrassed to say. I did introduce a few little things, but it was a pretty standard diet for most of my growing up.

Lisa: As a mother, in my head, I’m like, ‘You little shit!’

Claire: I hate myself! And now, when my three-year-old, he’s a little bit fussy, Mum just laughs. She’s like, ‘It’s karma coming back to bite you!’

Lisa: But what was going on for you? Like, why didn’t you experiment with food, or eat different foods? What was it?

Claire: I really don’t know. I think that I had some textural issues. I don’t think that was really a thing back then, but, like, sloppy foods, and stuff like that, I wouldn’t eat. And visual stuff, like, I’m talking ridiculously fussy. Like, if my chicken breast-, I’d only eat chicken breast. Like, if it had the littlest black bit on it, I’d cut that off.

It was like, yes, I feel so sorry for my poor mother. It was extreme. I don’t know, looking back, maybe it was food anxiety, or something.

Lisa: But that is a long time to have it. Like, you know, that’s your whole childhood. I mean, at least you did eat some proper food.

Claire: Yes. I did eat quite a few vegetables. I think there are a few more on there. That’s not right, I did have milkshakes, which Mum made, and she’d put raw egg in it, which we didn’t know about until a lot later, and almond meal. So, she was pretty good at sneaking stuff in.

Lisa: Bless her. I need to do an interview with her about fussy eaters! Imagine.

Claire: She’d love it!

Lisa: Okay, so what happened in 2010 then? What changed for you in 2010 with food?

Claire: So, in 2010, my now husband and I went to Europe for five weeks, and travelling around. So, we went to France, Italy and Spain, and translation. And the food there, it was tricky for me to get my stock standard food, so I started trying a few things, and surprise surprise, food was actually nice.

I was in this one place in Italy, Cortona, where apparently they had the best Bruschetta in the world, that’s their claim. And it was amazing! So, from then, I started eating a bit more food, and then I came back from five weeks in Europe with a few extra kilos, as we do. And that was right about when Michelle Bridges came out with her twelve-week challenge.

So, I did that, and having the recipes in front of me, and prescribe what you had to eat, sort of made me try more food. So, I wasn’t having to look for the recipes and say, ‘Oh no, I don’t like that, I don’t like that.’ I just did what she told, and that’s not my thing now, but doing that just opened up a whole new world of food for me. So, it sort of all started from then.

Lisa: That’s amazing. I mean, it’s amazing that you would have such a limited palate, and then you would just go, ‘Wow, no, actually food is quite awesome.’ And, you know, the end of this story is, as I said, you’ve got your own wholefoods blog, and your kids are eating a wider range of foods than you had by the time you were twenty.

Claire: Pretty much!

Lisa: But then, there was another part of your story that, kind of, forced you further down into the world of food. And that was when you were trying to have a baby. So, talk to us a little bit about where you were at, at that stage. Because a lot of people talk about going the ‘natural route’ for things, but not, perhaps, understanding what that means, and how hardcore it has to be, and all that kind of stuff.

So, first of all, tell us what it was like struggling to have a baby, and how confusing that was. And then, when it lead to your diagnosis, how that made you feel.

Claire: So, I’d been taking the pill for nine, ten years, as a lot of people did. There wasn’t all the information there is now. So, I stopped taking it, I think it was in about the May of, oh God, whatever year it was, and I didn’t get a period for nearly six months. And then when I did, it was sort of all over the shop.

My skin was terrible, it was awful. We weren’t getting pregnant, obviously, because you can’t if you’re not having cycles. And I was talking to a friend, on the beach over Christmas, that year, so it had been about seven months. She had just graduated from medicine, I think, and I mentioned it to her, and she goes, ‘Oh, well, maybe you’ve got polycystic ovaries.’ I’m like, ‘Sorry, what?’

So, went to the doctor, as soon as I got back from the holidays, and did all the blood tests and everything, and said, ‘Yes, it turns out you do.’ I was devastated, to start with, because I didn’t know what it was. It’s talked about a lot more now, but back then, it just wasn’t. You know that people have polycystic ovaries, and they can’t get pregnant, but nobody really knew what that meant.

So, went to a fertility specialist, and the doctor said, ‘No, you’re within the healthy weight range.’ That’s the first thing they tell you to do, is lose weight. I was in the healthy weight range, there was nothing really specific that they could fix. The only solution was taking Clomid to try and give me cycles again.

Lisa: Oh yes, kick-start the-,

Claire: Yes. Which, I had in my head that the pill was what started it all, so I didn’t want to take another pill to try and fix what the other pill had caused. So, I started looking more into alternatives.

The fertility doctor was actually really supportive. He basically said, ‘You’re not going to get pregnant unless you take this.’ Alright, ‘What else you can you do for me?’ He said, ‘Well, I can order you blood tests, so you can see when you’re ovulating.’ So, we went with that, so I went home and just started researching.

I found one website-, so there was barely any information about natural stuff, it was everything telling you about all the medications. One website, where the girl talked about oestrogen overload and polycystic ovaries, and related it to food, and plastic, and beauty, everything.

I did exactly the opposite of what you recommend, which is not what I would recommend to people, and completely overhauled everything. Like, I got a garbage bag, it was like those ads, got rid of everything in the house and started again. I’ve gone on a bit about it.

Lisa: No, it’s interesting because people get stumped at this point. I mean, now I’ve interviewed Nat Kringoudis many times.

Claire: I love Nat, she’s one of the people who I started following as part of this.

Lisa: When people hear about-, and I’ve got her Women’s Health Series on my website, so people can buy it, and it’s five different interviews, and we cover so much stuff.

Claire: Yes, that was awesome. I watched those.

Lisa: Yes. Well, you can literally see lightbulbs going off, for me. I can’t really hide what I’m feeling, you can just see it. And when you start to learn about hormones, and how important that they are in our body, and each one regulates different things, and has kick-off effects for others, then all you think about it, ‘Okay, well what can I do so that these can operate in a normal way?’

Because, as she says, like with weight, it’s a symptom of something else, and hormones being off. Or, not getting a period is a symptom of something that’s not right, and you just have to do a little bit of digging. And the way that our oestrogen can be impacted by things in our everyday environment.

You and me, we’re the same vintage. Like, I go to my parents’ house, and they still have those air fresheners in the toilet, and all sorts of things that now-, there are so many of us waking up to the fact that that is messing with stuff inside us that we could never have known, without people like Nat, and obviously, the websites that you were looking at.

Alexx Stuart is a great one, too, for the low tox stuff. Because if we don’t have them right, then other things just don’t work. But did it surprise you, what you were finding out? Were you a bit shocked, horrified? Like, what were the emotions, and feelings, that-, ‘Hang on, I can’t have a baby because what?’

Claire: Yes, horrified, and angry, I was, to start with. And I still am angry about all of this. So much of it is-, not brushed under the carpet, but put in front of people, and, you know, if you don’t go and do research, you see that something, ‘Yep, this is the way to go,’ you accept that. Unless you actually question somebody, you don’t find all this other stuff, that, ‘No, that’s actually not the way to go, and that, actually, is doing you more damage than good.’

It just does my head in. Like, the supermarkets, and medical things. There are so many medical professionals that are still so narrow-minded in their thinking. It just makes me really angry. Yes, so coming back to your question, when I first started reading all of that, yes, I think anger was probably the first thing. And really overwhelmed.

I think, looking back, I probably got seriously anxious about it all. Like, a little bit obsessive, because I’d read that non-organic chicken has seriously high oestrogen in it. Don’t take my word for any of this, but the hormones in chicken are worse than other things. So, somebody would serve me chicken, or I’d go somewhere, and I’d get a bit panicky about eating that.

So, it was really hard to get around. I’m probably only just coming back to-, not normal, but without, like, ‘Oh my goodness, I can’t eat this. This might have some nasty thing in it.’

Lisa: Yes. Oh, look, yes. We can definitely talk about that, because I think the anxiety is real. And you did mention, also, about your son at birthday parties. When you have these beautiful kids, and you’re trying your best for them, and then they’re just going, and they’re eating all the things. That can be really hard.

So, going down the natural route, focusing on oestrogen, was there anything else that you did in order to get your body into a state where you fell pregnant? And how long was the time that it took?

Claire: So, that was the January I was diagnosed. So, one of the other things I’d read, which I probably should have mentioned earlier, was that acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine had-, there had been amazing results. Because I’d discovered Nat Kringoudis, and obviously, I’m not in Melbourne, so I couldn’t see her.

But through my amazing chiropractor, I found some people that were actually just up the road from me. Like, I could walk a block away, and saw this lady. She was amazing. So, I started having acupuncture, and taking Chinese medicine, which tastes like dirty water that’s been through disgusting drains. It was awful! I had to have that morning and night. But she got my cycle regular in a couple of weeks. So, her success rate after three months is something like 97%.

Lisa: Get out of town!

Claire: She said she has a lot of patients who are doctors, because they’ve tried the medical route, and haven’t been successful, and they come to her. So, I was pregnant within three months of starting with her.

Lisa: That’s just-, I mean, what? I think so many people see the natural route as risky, and also, and this is what I loved about what you said, as well. There are no quick fixes. And I think so many of us are just, like, ‘Quick, where’s the pill?’ Or, ‘Quick, where’s the this?’

Or, even when it comes to transitioning our diets, ‘I’ll do whatever you say, let’s just do this properly.’ Or when it comes to any type of healing, or any type of lifestyle change, we have to be prepared for it to take time.

Claire: Yes, and it’s sort of conditioning. I don’t want to go on a tangent.

Lisa: Tangent away!

Claire: The medical side of things has a lot more money than the other things. So, that’s what we hear, of course, more than anything else. We’re sort of lead to believe that that’s the way to go, and the other things, the other options, ‘Yeah, might work, whatever.’ But some things might actually work a lot better than the medical option.

I know my husband had a bit of a hard time getting on board with the options. So, I had to give him a deadline for when I would try the next medical step, if the acupuncture, and all the other things, didn’t change. Luckily, I didn’t have to give in to that.

Lisa: Well, you know, Nick is really open-minded, but I struggle with that too. I’ve never shared this before, but our youngest daughter, when she started walking, her left foot was really turned out, and she would drag it. It looked like she was a little bit disabled, in her foot, when she was walking.

I kept on thinking, you know when everyone’s un-co-ordinated? But then, at about fourteen months, I was like, ‘This isn’t right. This is actually getting worse,’ and I took her to the GP, and she said, ‘Look, Lisa, she is going to need surgery to turn that around.’ I was devastated, and she said, ‘But they’re not even going to look at her until she’s eighteen months.’

I thought, ‘What? I don’t want them to break her little leg. This is awful.’ So, I went straight to my chiropractor, and within, maybe, four weeks of going each week, the foot was turned around. And we probably did weekly for two months, and now she’s got a perfectly normal foot, and leg.

Claire: How scary is that?

Lisa: It was probably from when she was born, and she was just tight all up her left side. So, what it was, he was just doing, he wasn’t even touching her foot. It was just loosening up all the side of her body, so the muscles could perform in the way that they were meant to.

I was like, if I didn’t have him as an option-, and I was so anti-chiropractors. I saw two in Sydney, that promised me they’d turn my babies, and they didn’t, and I was like, ‘Chiropractors suck! I don’t believe you. Bloody whatever,’ and then I was so desperate, in Brisbane I found another one, when I was pregnant with my third. And he’s changed our family’s health in so many ways, but I still find it hard to convince Nick that it’s money well spent for our family.

I’m always like, ‘But you saw what happened with her foot.’ Imagine I didn’t have that, and I didn’t look for anything else, and then our eighteen-month-old was having surgery on her leg that was perfectly fine.

Claire: Yes, I know. It’s terrifying. And if you’d gone ahead and gotten the surgery, you wouldn’t have been doing the wrong thing, because you’re following who you think is an expert.

Lisa: That’s right.

Claire: That’s what’s so scary. Yes, but you do have to find a good chiropractor. I’ve been through a few rubbish ones, but my chiropractor is amazing.

Lisa: I totally agree, you do need-, but also, I find that with GPs too. There are some fantastic GPs, and also, I just want to say, flat out, I’m not saying one is better than the other, or that I went down the right way. Absolutely not, and some people absolutely need the surgery. I’m just saying I got a second opinion, it was a lot less harmful, and I’m glad I did that extra bit of digging. I’m just glad. So, that’s it. Big disclaimer.

Claire: And the listening to your gut, I think, is the big thing. But yes, you went, the surgery just didn’t sit right with you, with an eighteen-month old.

Lisa: Well, that’s exactly right. Okay, so tell me what it’s been like for you. Obviously you’re mum’s a pretty good cook, sounds like she fed you food that was real. But what have you uncovered through your journey? What are the most important things for you, to do with food, that you’ve, kind of, uncovered bit by bit? What’s your food philosophy these days?

Claire: I guess my food philosophy would probably be-, what do I say on my website? Wholefoods, made from scratch, basically. But easily, and I say a lot that I’m lazy, but in a good way, as in, like, if there’s an easy way to do something, I’m going to find it.

Yes, I have two little boys, I don’t have a lot of spare time, but that’s important to me, is making things with real ingredients, and staying away from packet stuff, and all of that. But yes, in an easy way. Because so many people think, you know, if you make things from scratch, it takes so much time, and it’s so difficult. But once you start doing it, it’s just not hard. And sourcing the best ingredients possible, which is always a work in progress.

Lisa: I loved when I interviewed Jude Blereau once, and she’s, like, ‘You know, this is a process, and it can take two years, it can take five years. It can take as long as you want it, to, sort of, switch things around, and a lot of it does come down to the sourcing of the things that you need.

It’s not an overnight thing, unless you’ve got nothing else to do with your life, and can focus every minute. Which, let’s face it, I don’t know, I don’t have that time. But how did people around you react to the changes that you were making?

Claire: Well, I probably don’t talk about it all that much with many people. I think one of the things is, it’s really hard to talk to people about if you’re choosing organic, and doing all of this, when they’re not, without making them feel like you’re judging them. Because, like, this is my choice.

I’m not saying that it’s right for everyone, or everyone has to do it, but I find it really hard to talk to people who don’t do that, and make them understand. I’ll tell you this story. We went to the coast for Easter, and stayed with my mum, sent her a shopping list. And she said she was in Coles, looking for all the organic things that I’d requested, and she ran into another lady that looked about her age, and she’s there looking on the list, looking at the shelves, and said to her, ‘Can I help you with something?’

Oh, and the lady had nappies, and something else baby-related in the trolley. The woman said, ‘Oh my God, everything’s just organic,’ and Mum said, she laughed, and they both had a bit of a laugh about both their daughters sending them lists with all this organic stuff. You know, there was no organic around when we were growing up, it was just food.

I think that’s, sort of, a hard thing as well, that you’re seen as being, like, difficult, a little bit, when you’re asking for organic things. Even asking at the butcher, ‘Is this free range? Is this grass-fed?’ I know you shouldn’t, but I feel a bit like I’m being difficult.

Lisa: Yes. Or, it’s that it’s alternative, when in fact, just having food that’s free from crap should be our norm.

Claire: Exactly, and that’s what’s so hard to deal with, I guess. I was talking to somebody once, the owner of a café, and he said he wishes it was spray-free, all of that, and then the other food was labelled with ‘sprayed with this chemical, sprayed with this chemical’. And what a difference that would make in people’s minds, rather than having ‘organic’ and ‘regular’.

Lisa: Huge difference.

Claire: Yes. Because that’s the reality, is that this is how it should be.

Lisa: This is altered.

Claire: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: Yes. People always ask me, ‘How much do you have that’s organic?’ You know, we got home from holidays yesterday, at about 5.30pm the plane landed, and I had no fruit, veggies, or anything. And so I raced up to Cole’s and just grabbed what I could, because I’ll get to the markets on the weekend, but I just don’t let it panic me.

I think people have this idea that we’re, like, a totally organic, you know, everything from scratch. I had no baking done, you know, I was absolutely not prepared. I could have smashed a banana cake out and put it in the freezer before I left, but I was just thinking about getting on that plane and going to see my family. So, I’m buying these little-, from the baby section, these little gingerbread men, I’m throwing them in their lunchboxes today.

I certainly don’t live a 100% organic life, and I think, for me, a lot of the time, it’s about making a choice between how stressed out I get about this stuff, and how that stress is impacting my health, and then is transferred onto my family.

Because what I’ve realised is, when kids go to school, there is a lack of control that comes in, big time. And all the amazing work that you’ve done, up until that point with your kids. It is like, my kid is asking me for Oreos in his lunch. He’s never had one in his life, but they look so amazing.

You know, you have to let go. So, I just guess I wanted to ask you, before I ask the small step that you’ve got for everybody. How have you coped with that? Because you mentioned before that it, kind of, lead to a little bit of anxiety around food. Once we know what we know, then we have to live in the real world. So, how do you balance all that out? How have you decreased the stress around food?

Claire: Yes, I did panic a lot about it to start with. Like, it was okay for the first year, eighteen months, but once my oldest started getting to the stage where they’re having birthday parties, and cakes, and seeing what all the other kids were eating. I think it was just that second birthday parties, I would just freak out at all the food, and I’d be trying to keep them away from it.

We had one thing, I think it was early last year, where he went a little bit crazy on cupcakes, and he was not well. His little tummy just couldn’t handle it. I think I was doing Small Steps for the first time, at the time, and I went on and wrote in the Facebook group, ‘I don’t know what to do. How do I stop him doing this?’

Nearly everyone just commented and said, ‘You’ve just got to let it happen, and let him learn himself. Try and fill him up before you go, and just don’t stress about it, because you stressing about it makes it a stressful situation for him, as well.’ Which, I don’t want him to have any kind of stress around food, or anything like that.

So, I just tried to accept it, that I have to know when I’m giving them food, it’s the best I possibly can, and that they’re going to eat other stuff. They go to daycare now, and they supply food there. And it’s good, they have a chef there, but it’s not all food that I would possibly serve. So, I’ve just had to learn to let it go.

Which, yes, it was difficult, and still is difficult, but I’m so much better at it than I was. So, I guess the main thing is just knowing that what you do makes up the bulk of it. The 80/20 rule. That makes up the bulk of it, and whatever else happens, it happens.

Lisa: I also think that there are times when they’ll be older, and it’s easier to talk to them about it. You know, I find toddlers aren’t rational creatures, and my son, he will still, at six, just go to the birthday parties and just eat all the things. Whereas my daughter will be like, ‘Hmm, it’s not making me feel very good.’ ‘Okay.’

What we talk about now is checking in with our tummies. Our tummies usually know when we’ve had enough. So, we need to check in with our tummies, and if we’re at birthday parties, we’re like, ‘Hmm, is my tummy feeling good, or is it feeling like it’s had enough?’

At a birthday party just recently, my son gave me the rest of his cake, and he said, ‘Mum, I think my tummy’s saying it’s had enough.’ And all he’d really done is eat all of the icing, all the way around, and left the cake. And then he did it when we were down in Melbourne. My mum had just made her fried rice, and they’re like, ‘Oh yes, my tummy’s saying I’m full. My tummy’s saying it’s had enough.’ ‘Finish your dinner.’

Now they’re just, ‘How can I use this to, kind of, leave the table and go and keep playing Lego?’ or something. But it’s really interesting when you can talk to them in a different way because they’re getting older, and I think that their journey through food, the fact that they’re growing up in a time where their birthday parties that they attend, they’re real, and that’s their version of party food. And I can’t control that. They need to learn the lessons for their life.

That’s how I feel. I know that there are a lot of other people who disagree, and who might take food for their children, and all that sort of stuff. But I just have this feeling, like, the more we ban things, the more we say, ‘No,’ the more that they want it.

I was doing a big clear-out of our toy room just before we left, in the school holidays, and I found these random wrappers, of lollipops and things, behind the cupboard where all the toys are. So, he’s obviously stealing stuff, and just going and eating it, and just hiding the evidence. And I think, I don’t want that for our family.

Yes, so it’s just this constant work in progress, I am finding, raising kids in a way where they understand, they know what ‘healthy’ is, and I am learning about what healthy means for me. That is, also, just taking care of myself, and letting stuff go through to the keeper.

Claire: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: I was about to say sometimes we can know too much. I don’t think so, I think sometimes we can hold ourselves hostage.

Claire: Yes, to the information. That’s very true.

Lisa: So, to finish up, just because I went off on a big tangent, or twenty! What would you say is the small step that you would share with other people?

Claire: I would probably say starting with a meal, or an ingredient, that you have regularly in your house. Like, okay, I don’t know about everyone else, but we have burritos a lot in our house. It used to be, you know, your Old El Paso box, you get seasoning, sauce, and tortillas. And if you look at the back of all those packets, there are a lot of numbers, and a lot of ingredients, and not great things.

So, I would say, having a look and seeing how you can improve on that. So, the seasoning is really, really, really easy to make. Burrito or taco seasoning, it’s literally, like, five herbs and spices, you’ve probably got them in the pantry already. You can make up a big batch of it, and store it in the cupboard. You can just add them at the time. So that’s one little thing. If you have burritos every two weeks, that’s a small step.

Then, the meat you use. What sort of meat do you buy? Can you upgrade the meat? I know you’re big on upgrading meat, Lisa. Then, the tortillas. Can you buy a better brand that doesn’t have so many ingredients in it? Or, can you make them? I make my own tortillas, and it’s actually really easy. I did this Facebook post last year. Went to serve dinner, it was, like, 8:00pm. I’ve normally got tortillas in the freezer, because I make them, and there were none there.

I went into panic mode, ‘Oh my God,’ and my husband was saying, ‘I’ll just go and get some.’ Our local IGA closes at 9:00pm. ‘They can be awful, all the nasty things in them.’ Alright, and he said, ‘It’s 8:00pm, let’s just eat dinner.’ So, he went and got them. You know what, I’m going to see if I can make tortillas in the time it takes him to go and buy them and come back.

The shop is literally, like, a few blocks from our house. So, maybe a five-minute drive, and I managed to make ten of the twelve tortillas, in the time it took him to get to the supermarket and back. Then I compared the ingredients – this post went crazy – the ingredients on the back of the tortilla packet, and then the ingredients in my recipe, which is like, flour, water, baking powder, and salt.

People were just amazed at the difference between making it from scratch, and, you know, buying it. So, it’s not really that hard to do, it just seems hard, I think. One thing we’ve, sort of, got in our heads is that if you can buy it in a packet, or, you know, like a pasta sauce, or a seasoning mix, if you can buy it premade then it must be difficult to make from scratch. Whereas really, a lot of the time, the opposite’s true. They’re just so easy to make, you’ve just got to start making them.

Lisa: I know, and you just need to start somewhere. I really like that idea of choosing something that’s on high rotation, that you could make a really big impact with. Yes, I really like that. It might be something with dinner, you know. I would also say, you know, find something that won’t shock the family. Like, ‘Eat this!’

Claire: Yes, exactly. They’ll still taste the same.

Lisa: And it’s really hard to go from something like Nutrigrain to homemade granola, or something.

Claire: Yes, a little bit too extreme.

Lisa: Do it in stages, so that people don’t freak out.

Claire: Yes, because I think that’s one big misperception, is that a word? That the health versions of things are not nice. Whereas the healthy versions of things can taste exactly the same as the packet, it’s just got much better ingredients, it’s much better for you.

Lisa: Yes, I totally agree. My simple, rich, Bolognese. Better than any sauce I’ve ever tried, because I made it exactly how I wanted. It’s literally, all I have to have on hand, I just have to have pantry staples on hand all the time, and I can mix them in a way that works. So, you know, tins of tomatoes and passata, and then I know I’ve always got the other things that I need to add in there, to just make it outrageously delicious.

Thank you, Claire, for sharing your story.

Claire: That’s alright.

Lisa: I think it’s a lovely one, and I think so many people, so many people-, I’ve got so many friends who struggle with fertility. Friends, family, everyone around. And everyone has their own journey through it, none is right or wrong.

I love that yours was one step after the other, after the other, and you have come such a long way from the girl who ate cabbage and chicken, potato, and apple, and carrot. That food can be enjoyable, and that food basically healed your body, and got you pregnant. It’s amazing!

Claire: And the second time, it took no time at all. Didn’t really have to think about it.

Lisa: And also that the struggle that you guys had, as a couple, and your fertility issues, has actually been such a blessing, because now, look at what you know, and how you’re bringing up those boys. As compared to if you’d fallen pregnant straight away.

Claire: Exactly.

Lisa: Well, I’m so glad you’re a Small Stepper. But if people want to follow you, where can they go and do that? Let’s give a plug for your stuff, because it’s awesome.

Claire: Thank you Lisa. Well, my website is clairekcreations.com and I’m ClaireKCreations on Facebook, and Instagram, as well.

Lisa: We will put links to that underneath the show notes, so that people can click and start to follow you. And, you know, you keep it real too. There’s a lot of realness in your videos.

Claire: I’m very real, yes! Probably too real, sometimes.

Lisa: I don’t think we can be too real. Everyone else is dealing with the same stuff.

Claire: Exactly, yes.

Lisa: Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today, Claire.

Claire: No, thank you.

Lisa: Very much appreciate your time.

Claire: Alright, thanks Lisa.

In this episode, Valeska Waldron from the Small Steps Membership talks about family life, and her journey dealing with anxiety – those thoughts that start out small, and then snowball into a space of perfectionism and self-doubt. She talks about some of the strategies she’s used, and the small steps she’s taken to help her deal with this – including changing her approach to food.

You can find out more about the Small Steps Membership here: https://smallstepsliving.com/ssl/

Subscribe to the weekly podcast on iTunes or Stitcher

Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: Hey everyone, another episode of the podcast, and another special person for you to meet. I am loving doing this Small Stepper series with you, and do you know why? I put a big callout in my Small Steps membership, and said, ‘Hey, does anyone want to share their stories?’ And pretty much every single person has said, ‘Oh, I don’t know what’s special about me, but sure, yeah, let’s chat. I don’t know how I could help other people.’

And the lovely lady you’re about to meet said exactly the same thing, but she’s actually got a few really great things to share with you, that I know are going to resonate. And I know you’re going to walk away with a few more small steps under your arm. So, please welcome the beautiful Valeska Waldron. Welcome to the podcast.

Valeska: Thanks Lisa.

Lisa: You’re calling in from where, exactly?

Valeska: In a suburb of Paradise, in South Australia.

Lisa: I mean, that’s pretty crazy. ‘I live in Paradise.’

Valeska: So, it’s pretty awesome!

Lisa: Today we’re going to just talk a little bit about your background, and I guess, when you started to get interested in wholefoods. But also, I’d like to ask you a little bit-, because you grew up in quite a remote area, how you feel like that might have impacted your upbringing. And this whole aspect of being an over-thinker, which is an actual diagnosed thing, which I never knew, and I would love to dive deep on that with you.

But first of all, can you just give us a little bit of a run-down of your upbringing? Because, I mean, I haven’t met that many people from as, is it isolated, or is it just mega-rural areas that you grew up in? So, could you just paint a picture of what that was like?

Valeska: Sure. I grew up on a farm, so I was a farmer’s daughter, and we lived 5km out of a town of twenty people, who lived in the actual town. The rest of the community, I guess, was spread out over farms, but it could be 30-40km away, and we all would, sort of, come into the town for school and sports.

So, I guess, ‘Really rural’ is a good description, as well as isolated.

Lisa: Like, how could that even be defined as a town, is my question. Like, more than that amount of people live on my street!

Valeska: So, there was a school in the town, a shop, which was also the local pub and the local post office, and also a bowling club, a golf club, a football club, a tennis club. So, I guess that’s how you’re bringing it into a town.

Lisa: It brings everyone from the remote areas together? All the farms?

Valeska: Yes, that’s right.

Lisa: Okay. So, did you have brothers and sisters?

Valeska: Yes, I’ve got an older brother, and an older sister. So, pretty much two years apart. So, I was the youngest, and went to the local school that, when I started going there, or probably a bit more into primary school, there ended up only being 80 students from Reception to Year 10.

Lisa: Wow!

Valeska: So, in that respect, pretty isolating as far as making friends, and being able to choose your friends. So, I actually found that really challenging. I don’t have lots of positive memories of school, as far as the social aspect goes. I really struggled with that.

I was a bit of a victim of some bullying, I suppose. Wore glasses since I was three, so the ‘four eyes’, ‘fatty’, even though I wasn’t probably classed as fat, but ‘fatty’. ‘Big Val’ became my-, which, so, now, no-one’s allowed to call me ‘Val’.

Yes, so, a few things like that. It really, I guess, dented my self-esteem, even though outwardly I probably appeared confident in a lot of respects.

Lisa: Did you have to do work on the farm? Was it a busy childhood?

Valeska: It was busy in the fact that my dad was flat out, he wasn’t around a lot. And we helped out a bit, chasing sheep on the motorbike, or feeding the chooks. Sometimes, as we got older, and could learn to drive-, I started learning at eight, on a rid-on lawnmower.

And then, I guess, didn’t drive vehicles until I was a little bit older, but helping move machinery when he was harvesting or seeding. So, moving the tractor from paddock to paddock. So, he had 11,000 acres. It seems like a lot, but the yield wasn’t great, because that’s the type of land that it was, if that makes sense? So, you didn’t get high yield. So, yes and no.

Lisa: I’ve got some cousins, you know, through marrying Nick, who were brought up in the country. I remember a lot of friends, when I was living in Melbourne, in my twenties, from Tasmania. I remember at Uni, a lot of country kids coming, and they would live on campus, or they would live in the most awesome shared houses.

I always had this feeling, like, if you grew up in a city, everything was just there. Whereas if you grew up in the country, you just wanted to get to the city, or you wanted to go exploring, and go travelling, and there’s always this bigger life happening on the outside. Is that, kind of, what it felt like to you, when you were growing up?

Valeska: I think so, particularly for me. I didn’t love it, I guess, probably for the social aspect. I’d say I’m quite a ‘people person’, and I probably struggled with that. So, I did go on a student exchange, after Year 11, I went to the States for six months, and that sparked off a love for travelling, for me, and I’ve travelled quite a bit since then, as well.

Lisa: Quite a bit? You have done a lot of travelling!

Valeska: Yes, so I went on a working holiday visa to the UK in ’99, 2000. Came back, and then I, sort of, did a bit of extra travelling, saw other countries while I was there, but then came back. And in 2007, I went to Canada on a working holiday visa, and travelled quite a bit, to the States, back to Europe, in that time. And met my husband in Canada, he’s from England. Then we lived in Ireland for a while, before he moved to Australia with me.

Lisa: So cool. I’ve lived in Ireland, too. Loved it, loved it!

Valeska: We did love it, except for we were smack bang in the middle of recession, so had trouble getting work. But the country’s beautiful.

Lisa: That’s bad. Yes, I was with an ex-boyfriend, and we lived in Dublin. My dad’s Irish, so I always had this, kind of, want, to just go over there, experience what life was like. And we had a ball. I got quite large, because I was just drinking all the time, doing no exercise, pretty much. But we saved a lot of Euro, and then travelled around Europe. It was really good. And also, to just get to know my relatives, and stuff.

So, okay. You had a very isolated upbringing, then you, kind of, spread your wings. You found your confidence, all of that. But then you met your husband, and now you’ve got two beautiful children?

Valeska: Yes. I’ve got two little girls. I’ve got Delilah, four, and Hazel, who’s two.

Lisa: Just love those names! I love them so much. So, I asked you a few different questions (TC: 00:10:00) before we started this, and you said it was basically like a meat and three veg kind of upbringing. Which, in some ways, I just think, without access to all of the craziness of going to shops all the time, and all of that kind of thing, would be so nice.

Valeska: Yes, in a way.

Lisa: Well, I know it must have felt a little bit, maybe, boring, at times. But I think, as a mum now, to do a big shop, or to know that whatever you’re harvesting on your own land, you use, and then you swap with other people, and whatever. Like, that’s just the way it should really be.

But, what happened? Like, when you were travelling, how were you eating? And then, once you fell pregnant with your daughter, what changed for you?

Valeska: Okay. I guess, actually, I probably didn’t mention this at all previously, but I’ve gone through the Weight Watchers thing. Not that I actually joined, but I used the concept, which sort of taught me a little bit about what’s healthy, and what’s not, to a degree.

I realise some of it’s, like, on the artificial sweeteners, and low fat, low fat everything. So, that was my lifestyle, sort of, before. Except for travelling, obviously there’s a bit more of the eating out. Is still tried to keep to a point. I cooked a bit for myself, especially in Canada, just to save money. But it’s definitely what’s available, and what’s there, and eating out a lot, so you don’t have a lot of choice, I suppose, over healthy eating.

But then, coming back, I probably cooked for myself, quite a bit, for a long time. But when I fell pregnant, I just became very aware of what I was putting into my body, because I wasn’t just feeding myself, I was feeding somebody else, as well.

And came across the book ‘Feeding the Bump’ but Lisa Neal, and in that book, she has recipes, and talks about what nutrients are in those recipes, and how they benefit your baby, and also you, as a pregnant woman. So, that really started my mind, I guess, off on the track that what you put into your body really nourishes you, and can nourish your baby, I suppose.

Then from there, once my daughter was born, and started solids, I was very aware of trying to start her off on the right foot, with vegetables, and fruit, and not too much sweet stuff, to try and lay that good foundation.

Lisa: Isn’t it so amazing? I remember, for me. I don’t know if you’re the same? But if I looked on the backs of packets of things, it was like, fat content was what I was looking for, like grams of fat, for a long time. I wasn’t even really looking at the ingredients lists.

Valeska: No. I was looking at sugar, especially with a baby.

Lisa: Yes, sugar. But once you, kind of, do that headspace shift, where instead of thinking about food to just fill you up, or food that’s low in fat, but food to actually nourish you. And that all of these different foods that nature provides have all of these different amazing qualities that help our bodies grow and thrive in different ways. That then, you just can’t see it the same again? Like, once you’ve, kind of, gone there in your head?

Valeska: I agree.

Lisa: I think it’s, kind of, sad that we didn’t have that growing up.

Valeska: Yes. I didn’t have that education, for sure.

Lisa: Yes, and now, I feel like, you know, there’s a whole movement of mums of kids our age. Our kids are similar age, and older, obviously, there are women who have been doing this for years, and talking about it for years. But I feel like there’s now a real groundswell of women who are like, ‘Oh man, I just want to do this properly. I don’t know, particularly, how to do that.’

Especially if I followed things like Weight Watchers, or now we see the different kinds of theories about food. You know, we see a lot of Paleo options, and we think, ‘Okay, well, that’s the way to eat.’ Or we see, even, vegetarians, who have loads of reasons why we shouldn’t be eating meat. And it can just get so confusing, when really, when it comes down to it, it’s actually a big re-education process for us to just start cooking from scratch again.

Valeska: Yes, it can be pretty overwhelming. There’s a lot of information out there. Differing information.

Lisa: So, how did you get started on that? How did you, sort of, navigate the world of feeding your kids?

Valeska: Well, I guess it was last year. So, I had a bit of help, actually, with a lactation consultant midwife, who helped me with the initial solids feeding. So, who knows whether it was done the right way, with purees, and all of that stuff, but that’s how I did it, and slowly introduce foods.

But then, from there, last year, I came across Jessica Donovan. She did a free webinar, and just something spoke to me from that. The Natural Super Kids e-course.

Lisa: She’s a legend, yes.

Valeska: So, I did that, and that was great, but I found myself becoming very overwhelmed with it. That I had to do it all the time, and that it had to be done a certain way. So, I found that I was getting a bit stressed out by it. So, that’s when I came across your group, somehow. I actually can’t remember exactly how! Probably through Facebook.

Lisa: Yes, because you hadn’t gone through Small Steps to Wholefoods? You joined the membership fresh, in December, when I opened it up for the first time to the public.

Valeska: Yes. So, I did a webinar of yours, and then that resonated as well, about doing it in small steps, I think. Had a conversation with my husband, and decided to join from there. It’s been great, I think. It’s just a bit more of a real life approach.

Lisa: I think the thing is, and this is what I struggle with too, is the whole idea that once you know better, you do better. And I totally agree with that, but it’s more like you have the opportunity to do better, once you know better. It doesn’t necessarily equate to changing your life around to do all the things that now you feel you have to do. And it just drives the whole food anxiety thing through the roof.

Valeska: Yes, absolutely.

Lisa: I mean, I feel it too, and that’s why I kept on thinking, ‘Oh man, if I want to help people eat more whole foods, I’ve just got to keep telling them that I don’t do this perfectly, and that it’s okay for it to take time.’

It’s like we’re apprentices again, on a whole new job, and that job is consistent. I mean, how many times a day are we feeding our families? All the time. There’s just a new meal around every single freaking corner.

I find it really hard to maintain perfection. Obviously, I’ve been doing this for a few years, and I’ve got some good shortcuts and stuff, but I think unless we give ourselves permission to have this take time, then we’re just going to see it as some sort of new diet, that then we fall off the wagon, and we give up because it’s all too hard.

Valeska: I think, like you say, if you can’t do it for a week, or it’s not as good as it has been, you can then, when your life slows down, or whatever reason, you just start slowly bringing it back up again. And it’s taken me a very long time, I’d say, to learn that that’s okay.

Lisa: So, tell us a little bit about your struggles, then, with anxiety, or depression? And this whole over-thinking thing.

Valeska: Yes, sure. So, I was diagnosed with depression a couple of times when I was younger, and I think that was due to struggling with coming back from overseas, and being homesick another time. So, that probably triggered it. But more recently, having my children, I found I really struggled from birth to eight months. Like, extremely struggled.

The first time around, I had a bit of help, like I said, from that lactation consultant midwife, and she actually held my hand the whole time. She was texting me, we were texting nearly every day. She was a phenomenal support. We became friends from that. So, it would have been a different experience for me, I think, if I didn’t have that.

Then when Hazel was born, a similar struggle, but around, I think, it was three months, I found myself getting extremely wound up and anxious about sleep. Sleep was my obsession with both of them.

Particularly one day, I remember a friend offered to take Delilah for a few hours. So, she went out, (TC: 00:20:00) and the whole time, I was sort of jittery, and up, and looking out the window around the time she was due back, and thinking, ‘What am I going to do if she’s back and Hazel needs resettling? How am I going to manage this?’

It just didn’t feel right, it wasn’t right, how I was feeling. So, somebody said, ‘It sounds like anxiety. Perhaps you’d better, you know, do the Beyond Blue quiz. See your GP.’ Because I was pretty upset, because I knew something wasn’t right.

So from there, went to a psychologist, who has diagnosed me with over-thinking, and it is an actual condition. It’s part of OCD, so it’s not saying I have OCD. I have that component of OCD. And from there, it leads to anxiety. So, over-thinking leads to anxiety.

So, that’s what I’ve been diagnosed with, and it took me a long time to start coming round to the idea of taking medication. I tried really hard to just work on strategies, and things to make it better. And when Hazel was eight months, it did become a bit better. I guess my cycle started again, so that actually happened with both girls, that it just got a little bit easier. I was a little bit calmer. So, mine is a bit hormone-related, as well, but it was still there.

So, the psychologist talked to me about medication, on and off, not pushing me at all. But I finally agreed that I would like to try it. Hazel had stopped breastfeeding, and I didn’t want to do it while I was breastfeeding. So, I did start medication, and even though it might be subtle, the difference has been significant, on me and my family.

Lisa: You know, we just have to give ourselves permission to do what feels right, sometimes, don’t we?

Valeska: And give it a try. Like, I could have come off of it, so that was my reasoning, that I’ll give it a go, and if I want, I’ll come off of it. But the difference has been significant enough for me to not, at this point in time.

Lisa: So, what have you noticed? You just don’t go down that rabbit hole? You don’t have the, sort of, panic attacks and anxiety?

Valeska: Yes.

Lisa: Yes, right.

Valeska: So before, I guess, one thing was constantly wanting the approval of others. And I think that stems a bit from my childhood, but the other thing that has become apparent to me is I actually had this all my life. So, looking back now, I’m like, ‘Oh, yes, that makes sense now.’

So, the psychologist said mine is a chemical imbalance. Some people’s isn’t, like, it’s environmental, etc. So, mine’s probably a bit genetic, a bit environmental, but also, genetic, as in there’s a chemical imbalance. So, I guess when you look at it like that, I’m just trying to balance out that chemical.

Lisa: I mean, I think that there are probably lots of women, and men, who would put themselves in the category of an over-thinker. You know, I think, I can move through things quickly, I don’t necessarily need to hold onto things. Whereas Nick will totally go down the rabbit hole. And sometimes, it’s really hard, when you’re like, ‘No, you’ve just gone too far with this thought. Come back.’

I mean, for the women who might be going, ‘Oh my gosh, that’s me,’ what were some of the strategies that you worked on, before you went down the medication route? And I’m sure you still call on, because there would be that tendency to go there, I’m sure. So, what are some of the strategies?

Valeska: So, actually, I’ll just back up a little bit. Just some of the things were, obviously, like you say, down the rabbit hole. So, it’s the rumination of things, and the thoughts, like, going over, and over, and over.

Perfectionism. Everything has to be perfect, that also relates to the wholefoods. So, I’m able to let that go a little bit now. Yes, the approval of others. It is, I think, just, also, worrying about things that haven’t happened yet. You know, the, ‘What if?’ scenario. That’s when, then, the rumination starts over that.

Like, it’s something that hasn’t even happened yet, but my mind’s spiralling out of control about, ‘What if that happens, how do I deal with that situation?’ Then, coming up with strategies to deal with the situation that hasn’t even happened, and might not happen.

Lisa: Wow.

Valeska: I just wanted to lay that first, before I then talk about strategies.

Lisa: It’s good, because it’s also, like, well, we all tend to over-think sometimes. There are things that we all get a bit obsessed about, or worry about, and I think when you become a parent, it just goes next level.

But, I guess, hearing you explain it like that makes me see, like, you weren’t in control of it. There was an impact on your life, and your health, because this imbalance didn’t let you stop, right? So, that’s when you know it’s a problem.

Valeska: Yes. And so an element of it would be normal, for sure, if you want to call it normal. So, there can be over-thinkers, but it’s not a problem, or it doesn’t get to the extent that it needs medication, or anything like that.

But some of the strategies. I think it’s recognising your thoughts, so when it’s happening, recognising that it’s happening, and then being able to go, ‘Okay, I’m recognising this is happening, that’s okay, and there’s not a need, now, to keep thinking about it.’ If that makes sense? So, it’s recognising it, accepting it, and then, sort of, just being okay. ‘Okay, I’m having that thought. That’s okay, and it doesn’t need to go any further.’

Lisa: Yes. Well, it makes total sense. It’s seeing the thought for it being a thought, and not attached to you. And once you’ve recognised it, it doesn’t have as much power. Because, yes, then you are in control of it, because you’re seeing it for what it is.

Valeska: Yes. And a lot of the time, I could tell that what I was thinking was not real, or ‘silly.’ You know, I’d say to my husband, ‘I feel so stupid,’ or so silly, because I’m having these thoughts, and I know that they are, but I keep going over, and over, and over it. So, it’s having that ability to, I guess, accept the thought, but then know that it’s not a healthy thought, or whatever, and so you can stop it.

Oh, we worked on so much. What else is there? That’s probably the big one, actually. And with friendships, friendships were a big thing. I used to worry about friendships a lot. So now, I can be okay with where some friendships are at. So, with friends, are they either (a) not getting in touch with me as much, or they didn’t tell me this.

That was a real problem for me. Facebook wasn’t good for me, in that way, because I could see them comment on other friends’ posts, but never get in touch, or comment on mine. So, it was a real struggle in that. And it’s now being able to go-, not always doing this, but it’s okay to go, ‘Okay, that’s where my friendship with that person, or those people, are at, and that’s okay.’

I don’t have to be good friends with everybody. And realising that friendships move on, and creating new friendships. Does that, kind of, make sense? So it’s, sort of, the ability now to recognise that, accept that, that not all friendships are the same, and that’s okay. Let’s say I’m happy seeing them a couple of times a year, or, not pouring that energy into it.

By that, I mean, energy even into worrying about it, or thinking about it. Doing now, I’ve learnt, I’m going to do what I feel is right by me. As in, my actions, or my contact with people. I mean, I hope that some of them, I guess, get back to me, and do the same thing, but if they don’t I know that I’ve still done what is right by me.

Lisa: Yes. I mean, isn’t that a strong position to be in? When you start to see yourself as your own entity. When you start to make decisions that serve you, instead of serving everybody else around you? But it can be scary, especially, you know, with that need for fitting in, or for friendships validating who you are.

Valeska: Reassurance, I think.

Lisa: Yes. A friend once said to me that people come into your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. I’ve always felt that really calming, that they’ll come in for a reason, like, there’s something that they need to teach you, or they’re there, and you absolutely can see that there was a reason that they came into your life. But they don’t have to stick around, like, it’s just, that’s it.

Then there are people who come into your life for a season. And it might be the season of travelling, it might be the season of high school, it might be the season of when your kids are in primary school. Whatever it is, but there’s a season.

Then there are people who come into your life for a lifetime, and they just, kind of, stick. And there are only very, very few of them. So, it’s, sort of, always allowed me to think, ‘You know what? It’s okay for me to be moving into this circle,’ or, ‘It’s okay. (TC: 00:30:00) It makes me feel sad that I don’t see that person very often,’ or whatever.

But, like, it’s reason, season, lifetime. And, you know, those lifetime people are the ones that you just cherish, and they won’t go away. Even if, you know, there’s just no two ways about it. And it doesn’t matter how often you speak to them, that’s just it.

But I know we go through so many different changes in our lives, and I’ve found, now, especially with starting school for my eldest, and Kindy, and those things, it just gets busy. And it becomes about seeing who your kids want to see. You just, sort of, encourage the friendships with the mums that you like, too.

I mean, I think that that’s all such fabulous stuff to share, because I love normalising what can often feel abnormal for people. You know, you can feel really isolated in these things. Like, you calling yourself ‘silly’ because something’s going on that you’re not in control of, and you wish wasn’t happening.

But all it took was, maybe, doing that quiz, reaching out to friends, verbalising what it is that you’re going through, for someone else to say, ‘Hang on, you know, it doesn’t have to be like this. Maybe there’s something going on.’ And I think about that with physical health, as well. I think so many of us are just used to certain things, a certain rash on our face, or a certain pain in our body, or whatever it is. Or, always the belly fat, or whatever it is, and often this is just our bodies giving us clues that something’s not quite right.

Like, there’s something underlying going on there, that you can just do a little bit of digging, and then go, ‘Wow, that has just unlocked this whole reason for things being the way that they are for me.’ You know, our bodies are smart. They want to be feeling healthy and well, and normal.

Like, it’s meant to be that, and if it’s not, sometimes it takes a little courage to think, ‘Okay, it’s time to talk to someone.’ Or, ‘Okay, it’s time to make a change.’ And I think getting there before things get really, really, bad, is the key.

Valeska: It’s really important, for sure. I actually knew I hadn’t, sort of, felt normal for a long time. I received professional help previously, for things, as well. But I think you’re right, the fact that I probably didn’t feel normal, it means that there was something going on. Does that make sense? Like, mentally?

Lisa: Yes.

Valeska: If I, sort of, sensed the fact that I didn’t feel like everybody else, or normal, that even indicates that you’ve got a mental health illness, I think. Because what is normal, for starters? But yes, the fact that you need some help, talking that through.

Lisa: Yes. I just think it’s so important, and I’m so grateful to you for sharing this, because I think it’s going to resonate with a lot of people. So, to finish up, in terms of food, and making the changes. Because you were a new Small Stepper, so you hadn’t been through the eight-week program.

You just came into the membership, and you’re such an amazing contributor to that Facebook group. I really value everything that you share, and it’s such an encouraging space. It’s, like, my favourite place to hang out, pretty much. But I feel like through what you’ve been through, you really, also, just took on that Small Steps message.

It obviously was what helps you to keep moving through your wholefoods journey, no matter where you’re at. You know, we spoke before we went live, and you were like, ‘Well, you know, it’s not perfect.’ I’m like, ‘No-one is. That’s cool, we’re all cool with that.’ But it’s certainly, like, you’re on the path now, and your girls will have a different understanding compared to, maybe, some of their friends, by seeing you prepare meals whenever you can.

But if you had a small step that you wanted to offer someone else, when it comes to changing habits around food, what would you say would be your small step?

Valeska: Okay. My small step? I think, just choose something. So, just choose one thing to start with. So, whether it’s preparing food from scratch, or it’s preparing snacks from scratch, like, baking. Just choose one thing, and start doing that. Because I think once you start doing that consistently, then you can introduce something else.

I think, overall, everything’s about consistency. You are what you do most consistently. I think that was Jessica Donovan’s thing, actually. So, I think that’s actually really true. So, just do one thing, and then you can introduce, and maybe, you can start finding space for another thing.

If you start doing everything straight away, you’re going to get overwhelmed. Like you say, you might quit, and just not worry. Yes, and I have those moments, sometimes. And I’m just like, ‘Okay, whatever. Let’s just do that, and then I’ll start again.’

Lisa: Yes. I totally agree with you, and I think that what has made the biggest difference, for me, is to just always think. Like, I always think, ‘I’m just going to go back to breakfast. I’m just going to go back to breakfast, and just focus on breakfast, and we’ll find our way through.’ You know, it just brings me back to basics.

If I can improve one thing, let’s just go back to breakfast. What new recipes are around? What haven’t I tried? What would the kids eat? And just experiment there. Starting your day well does change the tone, for sure.

But, you know, I’m with Jess all the way. I really love the work that she does, and even although she’s a naturopath, and we got her in for an interview in the membership, to talk about kids’ health and stuff. Because she also gets that it’s hard, that it can be really difficult. But I love learning from people like her. They just know their stuff, don’t they?

Valeska: Yes. Yes, they do.

Lisa: Well, I thank you. I love that small step, start with one thing. Thank you for sharing about your journey, with where you’ve been over the past, well, your whole life, really. And then how you’ve started to take action towards improving your life, and through dealing with your mental health.

It’s so refreshing to hear someone talking really openly and honestly about it. And I think that there also can be a tendency to sometimes look down on medication, that we have to find the natural ways. We’ve got to do this, maybe it’s my gut health, maybe it’s this.

But at the end of the day, we all need to give ourselves permission to go down the path that feels right for us, and to do the things. You know, sometimes, especially when you’re in that state, it’s impossible to make the changes that you might need to make anyway.

Valeska: That’s right.

Lisa: As someone with a father who has depression, and will always be on medication, and, you know, he does volunteer work with Beyond Blue. Because he wants to talk, he wants to get the message out there to workplaces, that there are men, you know, in their sixties, or in their fifties, you know, however old they are.

There are a lot of people suffering in silence with this stuff, and it can be really hard to rock up to a sales meeting when you’re having a panic attack, or, you know, all of that sort of thing. He’s trying to get the word out as well, and reduce the stigma, and I found it really hard when he went on the drugs, because I just kept thinking, ‘What? This can’t be real. Like, why is this happening to my dad? I don’t get it.’

Actually, maybe I should do a podcast episode with Dad, because it’s a big thing to decide to do, but it was the absolute only option, for him. He’s tried, you know, going off them, and then that leads to all sorts of issues. You know, as a family, we kind of made peace that if Dad was, you know, diabetic, or something, he would be taking his insulin to balance out the chemical imbalance, or whatever it is.

So, this is the same kind of thing, for him, he’s the same as you. And I think we have to be able to talk about it, and support people who are taking action. And you did that, so well done.

Valeska: Thanks.

Lisa: Now, you go back to being in your puffer vest, which I very jealously saw. I’m like, ‘Man, it’s 30 degrees here again today in Brisbane. I thought the weather was cooling down!’ Thank you for sharing. I appreciate you, and look forward to chatting again soon.

Valeska: Sounds great. Thanks, Lisa.

Lisa: Bye.

In this episode, Lisa interviews one of the members of the Small Steps Living community. Renee Wallace is a mother and bowel cancer survivor, who shares her insights on how a life threatening illness can change your priorities, and how important it is to know what is normal and right for your own body – and taking action if you notice a change.

You can connect with Renee and find out more about her journey here: http://reneewrites.net/

And you can get on the waitlist for the next round of the Small Steps Living membership here: https://smallstepsliving.com/ssl/

Subscribe to the weekly podcast on iTunes or Stitcher

Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:

Lisa: Welcome to another episode of the podcast, guys. I, once again, am feeling a little bit excited. I tend to get excited about podcasts, because I’m sitting down, in my podcasting room, in my trackies, with a glass of water, and I have a very special guest on the other end of the line.

Renee is a Small Stepper, and when I asked if there were any Small Steppers who wanted to share their stories, quite a few people put up their hands, and Renee shot through some answers to questions.

Her story blew me away. I was trying to hold back tears. They were, kind of, sad tears, but then really happy, proud, tears, of the strength of a woman, and I think that that’s what you’re going to hear today. Renee, welcome to the podcast.

Renee: Thank you.

Lisa: And you’re dialling in from over the ditch?

Renee: Yes, I am.

Lisa: Whereabouts are you in New Zealand?

Renee: I live about 40 minutes south of Dunedin, in a small, rural town. It’s a farming community, so they’re quite nice, and cosy, and relaxed.

Lisa: And green?

Renee: Yes, very green.

Lisa: Cold?

Renee: Yes, very cold!

Lisa: So, cosy is, like, code word for slippers and big jackets?

Renee: Yes, fire on.

Lisa: Oh, fire on. Man.

Renee: Beanies.

Lisa: Oh, get out! It’s like my dream. People honestly don’t understand, the weather’s dropped to about 23 or 24 degrees, so everyone in Brisbane is wearing their long winter jackets, which is hilarious. I’m just loving life, and they’re like, ‘Oh, it’s so cold,’ and the Melbourne girl in me is like, ‘You ain’t seen nothing. Stop complaining!’ And I’m just glad to walk around without a sweat moustache right now.

Anyway, I should just move to New Zealand! Let’s talk about you. So, can you just give us that little bit of background as to, you know, did you grow up in the same small town? Where did you grow up? Was there anything unusual about your upbringing, or was it a pretty standard 80s, 90s, childhood?

Renee: Yes, I had a pretty standard 80s, 90s, childhood. I grew up in the city, in Wellington, and I spent most of my childhood there, and moved a bit further north, in Hawke’s Bay, to do my high schooling. It was, yes, pretty normal, just run of the mill, middle class family, your normal stuff that you take for lunch. You know, it was just a normal upbringing.

Lisa: And then, you’ve got a babe, you’ve got a kid?

Renee: Yes, I have an eight-year-old son.

Lisa: So, tell me a little bit about having him, and raising him, you know, with food. And then tell us a little bit about something that happened last year.

Renee: My son is fantastic. He’s very independent. He is an only child, and now it’s more than likely he’ll stay an only child. I’m quite lucky with him that he’ll just eat anything, so changing our lifestyle is no drama to him, because he still gets all the normal treats that another kid gets, just a little bit more healthy.

So last year, I was 38 years old, and I was diagnosed with bowel cancer, which was a huge shock, because it was not something that was ever going to happen, you know? Other people get sick, old people get sick. Not a young, healthy person like me.

Lisa: It must have been. I mean, as I told you before we kicked off the podcast, we have bowel cancer in both sides of our family. But this was to people much older than 38. How did you find out you had cancer? You know, were you going to the doctor for something, and then they’re like, ‘Ooh, hang on, let’s test for this?’ Like, how do you even know?

Renee: I didn’t know, and when it was picked up, my tumour was quite advanced. I went to the doctor one day, because I couldn’t walk, and I had extreme pain in my left side that just prevented me from being able to get up out of a chair. It hurt to walk, or anything.

I left it for a few days, as you do, because I was like, ‘Oh, it’s just something that’s happened,’ and so I went to my doctor and she sent me to the hospital for some tests, because she thought there was something wrong, but she couldn’t put her finger on what was wrong.

By that stage, I was thinking, ‘Oh, maybe something could be wrong,’ and the hospital that I went to discharged me with a viral infection.

Lisa: What?

Renee: They said, basically, the symptoms I was showing, I was too young to have anything that was of major concern. So, luckily, we had private health insurance, and I went back to my doctor and asked her to refer me for an ultrasound. Just to put myself at peace of mind that there was nothing wrong.

Lisa: Yes. And she did that?

Renee: Yes.

Lisa: What the actual? So, that would have been an undiagnosed, late form. You know, like, we’re staring down the barrel of that not being treated, and it going too far, and that being it.

Renee: Yes.

Lisa: That’s terrifying.

Renee: It is. If I didn’t take action when I did, the next thing that would have happened is I would have ended up in A&E in a very serious way, because the tumour would have burst through my bowel, or started causing a blockage, very quickly.

Lisa: So, what are the normal symptoms for bowel cancer? Is that level of pain, and inability to walk, and that sort of thing, is that what are the normal signs? What should people be, kind of, looking out for?

Renee: No, I had no symptoms as per the bowel cancer-, whatever you call them, like, what they go off. So you’re going to your doctor. So, the main things are change in bowel habits, blood, losing weight really fast, and there are a few other things. But yes, I had none of the normal symptoms.

Lisa: Normal, typical symptoms. So you weren’t presenting as a normal bowel cancer patient?

Renee: No, not at all.

Lisa: Okay, so it was only because of your digging that, then, an ultrasound showed up something nasty. And what was that like? What was it like hearing your diagnosis?

Renee: I never heard a diagnosis as such. It was really weird, because I went for an ultrasound, and the lady that was doing it was really lovely. She was talking to me the whole way through, and pointing things out on the screen, and said, at this stage, she couldn’t distinguish between my bowel and my ovary, because the tumour was making my bowel push against everything else.

So, I was like, ‘Oh, okay, that’s alright, it’s just something on my ovary. I can deal with it. They’ll just take that out, and I’ll be fine.’ But yes, they sent me for further scanning, and that’s where they picked up the tumour.

Lisa: So then, was it surgery?

Renee: Yes. I went from having symptoms to surgery in about six weeks.

Lisa: Whoa. Whoa.

Renee: So it was all pretty fast.

Lisa: And still, then, were you kind of going, ‘I’m a cancer patient. I have cancer’? Or you still weren’t?

Renee: No, it was weird. Because everything was so fast, I never considered myself a cancer patient, because no-one really said to me, ‘Oh, you’ve got cancer.’

Lisa: Yes, right.

Renee: It was all, ‘Oh, you’ve got a tumour. You’ve got a blockage. We’ll get that looked at,’ and then the next things was they were ringing me up saying, ‘Oh, we’ve got space for you, for surgery.’ And it was all just taken care of. After my surgery, they started talking about chemotherapy and stuff like that. It still never really sunk in, for quite a while.

Lisa: Do you think that that was just your way of protecting yourself? Or you just feel like you go into some kind of shock, or some sort of autopilot?

Renee: I think you do. Because no-one really sat down and spoke to me, and said, ‘Look, you’ve got cancer,’ it was just one of those things, that it wasn’t talked about. So, I just carried on life like normal.

Lisa: Wow. It’s really quite extraordinary. I mean, I’ve known people who weren’t prepared for their own deaths, because they just actually didn’t quite hear the diagnosis as it was given to them. I’m fascinated by that, because I think that there must be something in our human condition that seeks out that, ‘This is going to be fine,’ kind of mode.

And lucky for you, it has been. Are you at your one-year surgeversary, which is what you called it when you were answering the questions?

Renee: Yes, I will be on Tuesday.

Lisa: That’s amazing! And so, are you cancer clear?

Renee: I am at the moment, yes. I’m regarded as cancer free at the moment, but I’ve got another four years until they’ll say that I’m actually cancer free.

Lisa: Okay. So, once all of this did start to sink in, no doubt you’re probably giving Google a bit of a workout? And you were starting to, kind of, seek answers as to why a 38-year-old has a large cancerous tumour on her bowel?

What sort of things did you start to uncover, that you, maybe, didn’t know before about cancer? About bowel cancer?

Renee: Oh, there’s lots. As much as I did read a lot of stuff, I also tried not to, because I was at a stage where I had recovered from my surgery, and was about to start chemotherapy, and there’s so much conflicting information.

I’d read something one day and be dead against having chemotherapy, and stuff like that. Then the next day I’d read some other stuff, which showed me the benefits. So, while I was researching for my own benefit, I didn’t read too much into a lot of stuff, until I had finished. Now, I really research a lot of things.

Lisa: And so, what have you found? Because what you said to me was that this has, kind of, become your mission, a bit? You don’t want to get cancer again, you want to keep yourself cancer free, and do all the things. What sort of things does that involve? How does your life change after what you’ve been through?

Renee: I don’t worry about things, I don’t stress about much in life, any more. There’s the odd day that I think, ‘Oh,’ if I have one little tiny symptom, or something like that. I think you can go back to a really dark place, really quickly. But I try not to stress myself with anything.

I eat as best as I can. A lot of vegetables, and a lot of fruit. I severely cut back my red meat intake, and upped my fish intake, and I’ll read, and I’ll research, something so much that then I’ll introduce it into my diet. But I won’t introduce it until I know that I’ve done enough research, that it’s going to be good for me.

Lisa: Yes, right. So, needless to say, it was definitely a line in the sand moment for you?

Renee: Yes, definitely was.

Lisa: I mean, was it something that you would have been conscious of beforehand? The power of food to, I guess, to disrupt our health, and then also to heal?

Renee: No way. No. Well, I was a healthy eater, but not in the way I am now. We were eating fruit, and veg, and meat, and all the good stuff, but there were a lot of additives we had no idea about, that have changed.

Lisa: Yes. I mean, what’s made you go down the path of reducing red meat consumption?

Renee: It’s one of the major factors that can lead to bowel cancer. So, it’s my choice to have it once a week, instead of four nights a week.

Lisa: Yes, right. It’s funny, because my father in law died of bowel cancer. When they found his, it had already spread. He was Croatian, and lots and lots of cured meats, like prosciutto, and all of that sort of stuff, big time. So, we always used to have that stuff as well, and Nick loves nothing more than an antipasto platter.

You know, beautiful cooked meats, and hams, and all that sort of stuff. It’s a bit of a tradition, but I just stopped doing those things after that, and have had the same ideas about red meat, as well. We don’t eat a stack of red meat, but now, I’ve just had our son-, his iron is really low. So, we’ve got him on a bit of a liquid supplement.

I feel like, you know, you can learn one thing, and do one thing, and then you kind of then have to be flexible in terms of how your particular body reacts, and what your particular body needs. And I loved reading that about you, and you know, you just said it then.

You can do the research, and you can find out the things, and then you put the food in, and think, ‘Well, how does this feel? What am I feeling right now?’ And you said you had a big issue giving up cheese on the advice of your naturopath?

Renee: Yes.

Lisa: Cheese!

Renee: I know. I find it hard, still. I’ve given up milk, and I had no problem giving up milk, but I can’t give up the cheese.

Lisa: This is the thing, though, isn’t it? Like, we’re also just humans, trying our best. So even although you can go through what you went through, you can get professional advice, sometimes we’ve got our little vices. And we also need to be flexible within those, I guess-, I don’t want to call them restrictions, but it’s more new choices.

Renee: Yes. I’m the same with cured meats and stuff. I had no problem giving up sausages, and salami, and things like that, but I can’t give up bacon.

Lisa: Yes. We still have bacon, but we have it in moderation. Like, we just don’t have it all the time. Or, if we have it, it’s just a little bit, to add flavour to things. Unless it’s on top of French toast, with Maple syrup, and then, you know, go and have the damn rasher of bacon with that.

Renee: Yes.

Lisa: There was just a question that I wanted to ask you, on the back of that, as well. Now it’s totally slipped my mind! But what I’m interested in is the stress. So, you, sort of, said you don’t stress about things as much as you used to.

Is that because you’ve got this sense that, well, life is precious, and you don’t want to spend that time stressing? Or is it about what stress does to our body, and its impacts? Talk to me a little bit about stress.

Renee: It’s a bit of both. I, sort of, think that there’s a lot more in the world now, to not have to worry about things. I don’t stress about the little things, like my son going to sleep. I used to be a really bad mum, and think, ‘Oh God, if he doesn’t go to sleep soon, he’s not going to have enough sleep for school the next day.’ And I think, ‘Well, why am I worrying about stuff like that?’

The other thing is, I hardly ever watch the news. It’s just one of those things, and I think, ‘Well, I don’t need to know about all this stuff. It doesn’t worry me, but I know, deep down, it probably does. It’s got that subconscious feel to it.

Lisa: Yes. I totally hear you on that. And I think it’s just important to us all to, kind of, be able to-, I think we kind of move into catastrophising situations so quickly in our daily life. Nick and I have gotten very conscious of this recently. It’s like, ‘No, hang on a minute. Is this a catastrophe?’ Like, we’re moving down this line of catastrophising this situation, when in fact, ‘Who gives a shit?’

Renee: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: Why are we stressing about this? Yes, I just think it’s something we need to keep practicing, because there’s so much stress-inducing information out there. You know, even just the way that we live our life. Having to be at certain places by the time a bell goes, and, you know, it’s kind of built into daily life.

Renee: Oh, it is. Yes, it’s the whole ‘life is too short’ sort of thing. Because I could be in a whole different place right now.

Lisa: Yes. And man, I’m glad you’re still here, Renee, and kicking it, and sharing this story. And before you offer your Small Step, can we talk about poo?

Renee: Yes, sure.

Lisa: Because when you wrote down that you want people to get to know their poo, what do they need to know? Let’s just get it all out there. What do people need to know about poo?

Renee: People need to know what is their normal, basically. Because everyone has a different normal, but if you know what your normal is, you’ll know when it changes.

Lisa: Yes. And act on it.

Renee: Yes.

Lisa: So don’t just accept it as a new normal.

Renee: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: Because I know that that’s absolutely what happened with my father in law. Stoic man, ‘It’ll be right,’ until it just really wasn’t. And, you know, probably would have been picked up earlier, if just coping, or just dealing with it, hadn’t been the status quo.

Renee: Yes. I was probably a bit like that. I don’t know if anything had changed, because I wasn’t conscious of anything being wrong with me. So, now I’m saying you’ve got to know what your normal is. And don’t be scared to go to your doctor because they’ve seen it all before.

Lisa: Yes. Doctors love talking about poo! They love it, just as much as a new mum. Seriously. Okay, so, to finish up today. I’ve just loved this conversation, and I know it’s not a particularly sexy topic to talk about, but it’s so important.

Also, it’s just this beautiful, amazing reminder, also, when you think about what’s coming out the other end, of what we’re putting in is a direct result. You know, it is the top to tail story of our gut, really.

Renee: It is, yes.

Lisa: And the health of a well working system should kind of be one of our biggest priorities.

Renee: Yes. You need to know what you’re putting in, and what’s coming out. Because it’s all related.

Lisa: Yes. I think so much of my message is, ‘Just go back to basics with food.’ You know, that was where I started, when I started to get really overwhelmed with all the different dietary theories. This in, this out. I was like, ‘What?’ And then, I just thought, ‘Right, well for my family, I’m just going to choose the most whole ingredients, as often as I can, and make them the best quality I can afford, and find.

Then, it’s only when you get to that stage, and your mind starts to open up to that, that then you can go, ‘Hang on, why do I always feel this way when I’m eating this? I thought I was eating well, but what’s not agreeing with me?’ And it can be that one of those wholefoods is still not a great food for you.

But it’s hard to find that if you’re constantly stressed, and going at 100 miles an hour every single day. And it’s hard to find it if you’re-, I always give the example of chasing a Mars Bar with a Diet Coke. It’s hard to get to know your body, and what works for it, when it’s being filled with crap. But when you go back to basics, it becomes about tweaking, doesn’t it?

Renee: It does, yes. It does. I’ve learnt a lot about my body in the last, probably, six months. When I went through chemotherapy, my oncologist said, ‘Just eat whatever you want,’ because the treatment’s so harsh on you, sometimes you don’t feel like eating.

So he’s of the opinion of, as long as you try and eat the best you can, they don’t mind if you eat a bit of crap because it makes you feel better. And after that, when I finished was when I got stuck into my change of lifestyle, and changed all my food, and everything. I just had to do it, little by little, and now I’m very conscious of the reactions my body has to certain things.

Lisa: Yes, and it’s a powerful position to be in, I find.

Renee: It is, yes.

Lisa: Because I think so many of us are out of tune with our body, and with the messages that it’s trying to give us. So, you know, to really be tapping into that, to be thinking about what’s working here, what’s not, what do I need right now?

And sometimes, it might not even be anything to do with food. It might just be, ‘Man, I need to go out and go for a walk, and get this system moving.’ Or, ‘I just need a bit of fresh air,’ or, ‘You know what I need right now is I just need to call my mum, or my best friend.’

Because once we tap in, and really think about what it is that we need, then we’re fuelling ourselves with stuff that matters, instead of just, you know, the superfluous stuff that most of us fill our lives with, and it’s all just, kind of, noise.

Renee: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: So, to finish up, if you had a Small Step for people to take in their health journey. You know, I guess you’ve been a Small Stepper for a while, but you’ve also had a major life event. You know, what would you say to people?

Renee: I would say to change the way you live, just do it one step at a time. One ingredient, one meal, one day, one whatever. To take it as slow as you can, and you won’t feel the overwhelm.

Because most of the time, people rush in and change their lifestyle, and they do the whole thing, all in one day. Do the whole pantry cleanout in a day, and then you get stuck with all these ingredients you don’t know how to use. So, yes, I research everything that I introduce into my pantry, and I just do it one ingredient at a time.

Lisa: I just love that. Yes, I totally agree with you. And then, it also sticks.

Renee: It does, yes.

Lisa: Because if you buy that one ingredient, and you go, ‘Oh, I could make this with it. Oh, I’ve just added it to this. Oh, now I’ve got this,’ then you know it’s not going to be wasted, and you’ve just created some easy, new, habits.

And it’s just been really out of curiosity, and experimenting, instead of bashing ourselves over the head going, ‘You need to change. This isn’t good enough. You’re so unhealthy, and overweight,’ and, you know, ‘You need to do the things. Your kids can’t eat this stuff.’ Anything that comes from that place is doomed to fail.

Renee: It is.

Lisa: That natural curiosity, that experimentation, that giving yourself permission to have this take time, I think, is so powerful.

Renee: And it works longer-term, too. It’s going to stick more than a radical change.

Lisa: Yes. I think you’re awesome, and I think it’s so refreshing to just hear stories of people who have been through something like this, come out the other side, have a new, refreshing, and positive perspective. But also not one that is so extreme, that it’s still achievable for all of us.

Renee: Oh yes, for sure.

Lisa: And I think that’s where most of us just want to get to. ‘I just want to do the best things I can. I just want to eat the foods, do the movement, whatever it is, so that I can live as healthy a life as possible.’

Knowing that a lot of it is not within our own hands, but as long as I feel like I’m doing my best, then we can, kind of, sleep at night, and give ourselves a little pat on the back. I think you give a really balanced, beautiful perspective on how to achieve that. So, thank you Renee.

Renee: Thank you.

Lisa: I love having you a part of the community, and I can’t wait to share this podcast episode. So, I’m going to go right ahead and start editing this.

Renee: Oh, yay!

Lisa: Let’s get it up soon, and get this message out to the world. And I look forward to hearing how you’re going to continue sharing this, as I think it’s something that people need to hear about.

Renee: Oh yes. I’m out there all the time, talking about it.

Lisa: Good on you, Renee. Thanks so much for your time.

Renee: Thank you.

Lisa: See ya!

Renee: Bye.