In this episode, Lisa talks to nutritional medicine practitioner Jo Atkinson about ways that mums can keep themselves well while their children are sick, rather than giving themselves over to stress and worry.
Download Jo’s top self care tips for busy mums here.
Prefer to read? Here’s the transcript:
Lisa: Alright, it’s another episode of Small Steps Living, the Podcast, and I have one of my favourite people with us today to talk about a really, really seriously important topic. Now, anyone who has been in Small Steps land absolutely knows Jo Atkinson. She has been around the traps of Small Steps in many different ways, for a long time.
You might have heard a previous Podcast episode that I did with her. If you did a couple of rounds of the Small Steps to Wholefoods you might know her face. In the membership, she appears in guest interviews and we sometimes get her to pop in and do Q&As. She really knows her stuff. She is a nutritional medicine practitioner, who works with kids and families.
Often a lot of Small Steppers make appointments to talk to Jo, to talk through some of the things that are going on with their kids. And there’s a phenomenon that Jo and I have both noticed amongst these women, and we wanted to talk about it today. Jo, welcome, again, to the Podcast.
Jo: Thanks for having me again.
Lisa: Well, you do know your shit, and I like talking to people who know their stuff.
Jo: I do love a chat, too!
Lisa: Yes, we do love a chat. This is how we do our catch-ups now, via podcast. OK, so as an example, a few weeks ago, a beautiful Small Stepper reached out in our membership, was having real troubles with her daughter. She didn’t know what to do, there were lots of different people that she was getting advice from.
A beautiful Small Stepper was really confused about her daughter, who had a particular physical issue, and she ended up getting in touch with you. Like many other people do, signing up for one of your free discovery calls.
You know, she was in full anxiety mode. I could see it in her post in the group. She got so much support from the members, and I was so glad to be able to just palm her off to you, to really get some really grounded support.
But it was the mum I was most worried about. Her daughter was in a bit of strife, but she had a mum who cared so deeply, and was going to do anything she could to help her daughter. I was worried about her, because I felt like she was at the edge.
There are so many of us mums who are doing all the things for all the people, who are getting themselves really worked up, and it’s not particularly healthy. So, what happens? How do mums who are struggling with the health of their children, how do they present to you? What are you starting to notice about these women?
Jo: Yes well, there are a lot of them. Most mums that come to me are mums with kids that have had issues that have been going on for a while, that they’ve been to other doctors or practitioners, and just haven’t had the answers that they’re looking for.
Or, they’ve kind of been written off, to say, ‘Oh, it’s nothing to worry about. You’re overreacting. It’s fine, they’ll be fine.’ Especially first-time mums, but even mums with kids that haven’t had these issues previously, and now have them.
So by the time they’ve come to me, I’m getting mums that are quite distraught, feeling really guilty that either they haven’t done something before now, they haven’t done something sooner, or they just don’t know what to do. They feel completely disempowered because they’ve got professionals telling them, ‘You’re overreacting, they’re fine.’
But they know, they feel it in their gut that something’s not right with their child, and they want it to be better. So, by the time they get to me, there’s usually been a lot of stress, and there are usually tears in the consult.
Lisa: So, when that happens, as someone who knows a lot about this stuff, do you then also look at the mother and think, ‘I need to help you too’? Is this stress and anxiety that a lot of us feel for lots of different things manifesting itself physically?
Jo: Absolutely, absolutely. And often what will happen is they will come to me for their child’s health, and then now I’m starting to see the mums come through for themselves as well. And that’s usually come through a conversation.
So, I will start talking to them about their child’s health. Because the way that I work is, yes, we focus on the child that comes to me with their issues, and we’re working through those issues with them. But there’s also a whole family that’s affected by this. So, it’s not just one child that we focus on.
So, if the mum’s attention is focused on one particular child for an illness or something that needs to change, but they might have other children, or they’ve got a partner, or they’ve got themselves. So, I ask all the questions about their family structure.
How their family works, who likes to cook, who organises all that stuff. What meals that they can have together as a family that are going to suit the one that we need changes for, but that everyone can have, that sort of stuff.
Then through those conversations, it usually ends up into a conversation about mum and how she’s coping, and what she could do. So that when I send out a treatment plan, it’s for the child, but there’s usually some kind of conversation that’s gone on in the consult about how mum can look after herself while she’s looking after her kids as well. I think that’s really important.
Lisa: Well, I mean, the conversation that we were just having before we hit record, about your day yesterday.
Lisa: You know, I have just been through an interstate move, and I’ve had to drop balls all over town, because I just couldn’t keep everything in the air. And a lot of the work that I’ve been doing on myself, in order to be able to be someone who operates not in stress mode all the time, not in chaos mode all the time, who does have the capacity to feed her kids the food she wants to feed them.
It’s actually got a lot to do with me and how I operate in the world. Like, in my own head. How I manage things when they come up – and sometimes I really don’t manage them. Sometimes, I just have a bit of a yell, or I snap, or I whatever. But the ability for me to come back quite quickly to balance is getting better with practice. You know, do you want to just explain your day yesterday?
Jo: Gosh. So, I had a successful school drop-off. My youngest still struggles with a bit of separation anxiety, and it’s not a big thing so much any more, but it happens from time to time. And he was quite anxious because after school he had to go to a training band workshop, which was a first-time thing, and I couldn’t take him because I had an appointment.
So, I’d organised for another mum to take him. So, I dropped him off to school fine, then I get a call from school when I get home, he’s having a meltdown. So, I had to speak to him on the phone, and dealt with that, and he seemed OK. So, that was number one thing dealt with, went through my day.
Then I had to go for an appointment at 4:15pm, left in plenty of time, got down the road. There was a storm here yesterday, train lines were all out, all the roads were closed, all the stop lights had stopped working. It took me two hours to not even get halfway to where I had to go, and then get back in time to pick up my child.
I couldn’t get to the appointment, and that was a $150 appointment that I had to pay for, but I couldn’t get there.
Lisa: Oh, how frustrating.
Jo: And on the way home, my daughter, who was supposed to pick my son up – she just got her licence a week ago – rang me in tears because she’d pulled out onto a road and hit another car. Just a really small bump, but she rang me in tears and I was stuck in traffic. I’ve got one kid stranded somewhere, another one who’s just crashed the car.
I was just sitting there going, ‘I could have a complete meltdown about this day, or I could just, you know, not.’ And so, I chose not, and said, ‘Just calm down. Go home. I’ll go and pick up the youngest. It’ll be fine.’ Because she felt really guilty. And there wasn’t really any damage done, and no one was hurt or anything like that.
It was just the first time that had happened, and she’s been driving for a week. Traumatic. Lots of tears, poor thing. And then it was all fine. And then got home, and they were like, ‘Wow, that was a day.’ There were lots of other little things in that day as well, but it was just like, ‘Really?’
Lisa: Really, all of that? Thank you. This is the thing, right. You said the words – choice. ‘I could choose whether I lost it, or I could choose to operate a little bit differently.’ And I feel like we forget that we have a choice, or we forget that it can be a different way. We forget we have a bit more control over our reaction to those situations than we realise. But it’s so hard.
So, if people have been experiencing those sorts of days continuously, I’m curious to know whether you think mums in general – whether this stress is a big impact on their physical health, and in what ways that starts to who up.
Jo: Yes. It’s massive, and part of the reason why is because as mothers, or as women, generally, but certainly once we become mothers – our brains are wired in a certain way that we can actually multitask. Because if we couldn’t, we couldn’t actually keep our kids alive.
There are so many things that we have to do as parents in terms of keeping them safe, keeping them fed, knowing what all their noises mean, or knowing as they get older, when they’re in a bad mood, mums know why. Like, we know. We just know the right questions to ask, or we know how to work it out. We know our kids in a way that no one else does, and that takes a lot of mental energy.
When we’re worried about this stuff, when we’re stressing about this stuff, from a physiological point of view, it’s raising our cortisol levels, which can have an impact on our blood-sugar levels. And then when our cortisol levels are raised then our digestive system shuts down.
All the blood’s rushing to those areas, because we’re in that fight-or-flight mode all the time, putting out fires, breaking up the fights, thinking about dinner, knowing we have to get three kids to three different places all at the same time, every day. And we’re running on these high levels of stress hormones.
When that’s happening, it affects our sleep, it affects our digestive system, it affects the health of our gut, it upsets our gut bacteria. It’s all these things that are going on. So while there’s not, like, an obvious thing where you can say, ‘I have a pain here because of this thing,’ it’s like it slowly wears us down.
And before you know it, you’re in this state of, ‘I don’t know how to get back from here.’ Or you’re completely burnt out. Or you realise that you haven’t eaten a proper meal in three days. Or, you know, those sorts of things. So, they have long-term effects.
In terms of not sleeping well, we all know that sleep deprivation is really dangerous, but then we still have to get up and get in the car, and drive to this school, or pick them up from places when we’re exhausted. We’re surviving on coffee and sugar, because that’s the only thing that can get us through the day.
Self-care goes out the window, and when people say – and I hear this all the time. ‘You could self-care, and self-love, and you’ve got to put these things into your day.’ Well, that is not easy for most parents, most mothers. That seems ridiculous to say to someone, ‘On top of all the 25 million things that you have to do today, make sure you carve out a little bit of time for yourself.’
That’s what I’m seeing in my mums that come in with their kids. They’re exhausted and spent, and just at the end of their rope, going, ‘I don’t have an hour. I don’t have five minutes to spare on myself!’ So it’s about working with that, to fit in what they can. What they can. But also to pull back a little bit and look at what the hell’s going on in their lives, to stop this from happening.
Lisa: This is the thing. This is the thing that just gets me. Like, how have we ended up here? How have we ended up in this space? I remember saying the exact same thing. ‘Who’s got time to listen to podcasts?’ Still, sometimes, I genuinely do think, how does that happen?
When I had the three little kids, and they were at home with me, and all that sort of stuff, it was maxed out. Like, there was a lot of noise in my life, I felt like I was constantly chasing my tail. But then I did have a moment when I realised I had a choice.
I realised that I was perpetuating this cycle of chaos. If it was going to change, it relied on me. But then it was so hard to work out how to do it in that state of chaos. So, I feel exactly the same. I really feel for these women, and I just do think, though –we can’t put band-aids over this stuff, because then the cycle will just repeat itself. Like, it actually requires a new way of being.
Because I am very conscious of when I ramp up, all the kids ramp up, the whole house ramps up with me. When I’m launching a product, you know, things get a little bit higgledy-piggledy around the house. I lose a little bit of control over things – myself, really – I lose control of myself, which means everything else is losing control.
I feel like if we don’t take responsibility for the way that we’re doing life, like you did yesterday, just going, ‘Hang on a minute. Oh right. Am I just going to go through, pop the glass of wine, which turns into three at the end of today, and then I’ll just wake up tomorrow, and whatever. Or, I’m going to go, “Hang on a minute, I’ve got a choice. How can I do this differently? How can I respond to this differently?”’
Because if we don’t change the fundamentals, the stress that the mother is feeling will be put onto the children. I feel like I have to be responsible for my own stress, which is a horrible, perpetual cycle for mums to feel guilty about if they want to – which they shouldn’t. But it won’t change anything for the health of my kids if I’m constantly stressed, for example, about their health.
So, I’m conscious I don’t want them to be entering into a world where it’s always, like, ‘Faster. Come on, hurry up, get in the car, blah blah blah.’ Because surely that’s impacting them.
Jo: Yes. I think like you said, we can keep putting band-aids on these things. But the stress, the tears just from us as the mothers. The tears, the breakdowns, the yelling at our kids – these are all symptoms and signs that there’s something underlying.
The same way I would look at a person’s physical health, it’s the same thing. So, looking at band-aiding those things, eventually those band-aids are going to come off, or we’re going to require massive bandages to fix up those tears. Because it’s not dealing with the underlying thing.
Sometimes, you can do that in small steps, and sometimes it requires radical change. That can be just saying no. No more after school anything. No more, ‘I have to cook a certain kind of dinner every single night.’ Or, whatever it might be. No more computer for the kids in the morning and they all have to do this.
Whatever it might be that seems kind of radical, and it is scary, and this is what I find a lot of mums don’t want to do, because they don’t want to upset the kids, and they don’t want to have to deal with the fallout. But I can promise you, dealing with that fallout in the short term will reap rewards. Otherwise it’s like death by a thousand cuts.
This is what my husband always says to me when I get a little bit like, ‘Really, kids. Come on, I’ve told you about this, you’re supposed to do this. Come on.’ And he goes, ‘No. That is death by a thousand cuts. You’ve just got to rip it all back and start again.’
Sometimes that means you’re not the most popular person in the house, but you’re standing up for yourself and what you need. You’re showing your kids that that’s the sort of thing that they can do, to get what they need.
And you will earn their respect by doing so, and you will all be happier. So, it’s not easy, and I think as mums we fall into the trap a lot of wanting to be liked, and wanting our kids to love us. But I promise you they will actually love you even more by doing that. Kids want boundaries, and they need them, and we need to give it to them, because that’s our job.
Lisa: Yes, and I just love everything that you just said then, especially the part about the tears and all that stuff – it’s a symptom of something bigger going on. That is so true. I have thought about it like that, I know when those moments are happening for me, and I know that there’s a reason for them.
But that consistent, constant, fundamental, you actually stop believing that life can be a different way – that is the stuff. I really love that. And in terms of the boundary setting, it’s so true. But don’t you think, also, that if we’re able to do that we would be showing them, also, that it’s OK for them?
They would be able to say, in their friendship groups, when they’re parents, whatever, ‘This isn’t cool by me any more. I need to be able to say this for myself.’ If we’re just constantly bending over backwards for everyone and keeping people happy then that’s what they’re going to see as what a mum does, what a woman does. I don’t know.
Jo: I’m not a psychologist, but I’ve been parenting for 17 years now, and I have watched these cycles with my children happen over and over again. And when I look at my own behaviour, especially my daughters, when I look at my own behaviours and how I deal with things. I have tended in the past to let people walk all over me because I’m a bit of a people-pleaser. And then I watch my daughters doing the same thing, and I’m like, ‘No way. You stand up for yourself.’
But me telling them that is actually not the thing that’s going to make them do that. It’s me showing them that, and stepping into that in my own life, that gives them that tangible example to go, ‘Mum did it. The world didn’t end when she did it. She still has good-quality friendships, or relationships, with people and she feels good about herself.’
That’s the thing that they’re seeing, whenever we do that. And the same goes with our younger kids as well. Like, with my son, teaching him resilience is not about telling him to be resilient. It’s about showing him how we are resilient. So, we can’t fake it, because they know. They are doing what we do.
Lisa: Yes, little sponges that they are.
Jo: They are, totally.
Lisa: OK, so talking about tangible, let’s get practical for a minute. If someone has found themselves in this position and they know that there are some things that they need to fix, they’re feeling that anxiety or overwhelm. How can they support themselves? Are there things that we can do? Are there things that we’re deficient in? What can we do to help ourselves?
Jo: Yes. I would say, these are the three bits of advice that I give most mums, whether they’re coming to see me for themselves or whether I’m seeing their kids. The first one – and this is the stuff that I’ve had to learn as well – being a mum and now having a business, and being miserable because I’ve lost the things that are important to me, and then not even knowing what they are.
So, the three main things that I see are connection, because when we become mothers – and when they’re little it’s a little bit easier. We go to mothers’ groups, and parent groups, and we’re surrounded by other women who are in the same situation as we are.
You can go there and bawl your eyes out, and tell somebody in confidence that you nearly threw your kid out the window, and they go, ‘Yeah, I totally get that,’ instead of the guilt that you might feel by telling someone that doesn’t have children that might be mortified. They get it, you’ve got those connections there.
But as our kids go off to school, and maybe we go back to work, those connections tend to drop away. Then the kids start doing after-school sport, and we get busy. So we’ve got work, we’ve got after-school kids’ stuff, we’ve got partners that are working. It ramps up, and it is all on, every single day. And those connections slip away.
So, I would encourage people to revisit those connections that are really important to them. Whether it’s a family member, their partner, their friends, even the person that they get their coffee from every day. Have a conversation, so that at least once a day, you’re connecting with another human being that’s not about, ‘Have you paid the bills? Do you have your homework done?’ All that kind of stuff. Like, a real connection.
One of the other things that I’m doing in my own family at the moment, as my girls are now driving, and disappearing from our house quite regularly. And as, you know, they’re getting to an age when they’re going to finish school, and potentially move out or go to uni, how do I bring them back? How do I keep that connection with them?
So, we’re doing little things like two nights a week, everyone has to be home, and we have dinner together around the table and we light candles. Or, the other night, Sunday night, we put a picnic blanket out on the front and watched the sunset, and ate toasted sandwiches. Like, it wasn’t a fancy dinner, but we sat there, talking about stuff.
So, that’s just a little thing that I’m bringing in to keep those connections, because my connections with my kids are really, really important to me. And it’s also another way that I’m not sitting there telling them things they have to do, or nagging them, we just chat, and it’s really nice. So, connection, really important. Find those connections again.
The second one is slowing down. Everything is happening at high speed, all the time. Our thoughts are racing. I don’t know if you’ve seen that thing going around Facebook about the mental load that mothers carry, or women carry. We don’t stop thinking, ever, about everybody, all the time.
Sometimes it’s worry, sometimes it’s just the practical, logistical stuff. Sometimes, I don’t even know what, sometimes. It’s always there. Always there. There is never a time that I can think, ‘I don’t think about anything.’ At all. Ever.
Like, I have a planner called a Control Freak Planner, because I have so many things I have to do. I have to write them down. I have a journal next to my – like, there’s always stuff. But I’m lucky now, my kids are old enough, I go to yoga three times a week, and that is something that I’ve started to do about a year ago. And it’s the first time I’ve ever, in my whole life, done anything like that.
I’ve always thought, ‘Oh, I’m not a yoga person. Oh, I don’t have time for that.’ But then I realised, if I don’t start making time for that, I don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m going to lose my mind. So, I do have those little three hours a week that are just for me. But we can build in little things.
So, depending what’s going to work for you, making a cup of tea in a really nice cup that makes you feel nice. And as the kettle’s boiling, just stand there and watch it, or look out the window, or whatever. Just any time those thoughts come into your mind about, ‘Oh, I should be doing this. I should fold the washing while the kettle boils.’ Just stop. It’s, like, two minutes, and just have that moment.
Oh, and eating! My goodness. How many mums eat the crusts of their kids’ sandwiches as their breakfast, or sit at the dinner table and their meal goes cold while they’re trying to fight with their kids about getting them to eat food? And then we go, ‘Oh, our dinner’s cold,’ and we scoff it down. Or we’ve lived on cups of tea for an entire day, because we haven’t actually stopped to eat.
Just stop. Even if it’s only once a day, try and stop and eat. Sit down, and eat, and chew your food. Just really small, little things that you can be conscious of during the day, to slow everything down. Maybe instead of running out.
I know I’ve left the house sometimes where I have, probably, like, six bags. I’ve got my handbag, I’ve got my work bag with my computer in it, I’ve got my kids’ gym stuff, I’ve got a lunchbox that he didn’t put in his bag. I’ve got the girls’ whatever, and I’m like this crazy bag lady running out of the house with all this stuff, going, ‘Is everyone ready?’
What am I doing? Carry your own damn stuff! But secondly, just slow down. It really does not take, like, even 30 seconds to just stop and go, ‘Hey guys, grab your bags, let’s go. Let’s all walk out walking out,’ instead of this crazy rush. And just try and slow everything down.
I know we talked before about life 50 years ago, and the Anne of Green Gables thing. Life was just slow. Everyone walked everywhere, and everyone just took their time with stuff, and the act of cooking – you were focused on cooking.
Now, we’re cooking, doing kids’ homework, listening to a podcast. You know, all these things all at once. It’s insane! Just back the stuff off a little bit. And you will still actually have time to do everything, but you’ll do it better, and you’ll feel less stressed.
And then the third thing, and this is the thing I’ve started to actually put into all my treatment plans, is checking in. So, it might be that you check in once a month. So, you put a reminder in your phone, or your calendar, to go, ‘Hey, let’s just check in with how’s my body feeling? Have there been any foods that are creeping in? Have I been sleeping well?’
Because it can quite often get six months down the track, and we go, ‘Oh, we’re all back to square one, and everyone’s grumpy, and such-and-such’s eczema’s broken out again,’ and it can feel like it just happened overnight. But nothing happens like that, overnight. It has crept in slowly.
So, we’re keeping a check in once a month and just going, ‘How are we all feeling? What’s been going on?’ Check in with yourself, check in with the kids, check in with your partner, ‘What’s up?’ Sometimes, if it’s quite intense, you might want to do it once a week and just go, ‘Hey, what’s been going on this week? Have I meal-planned? No. OK, that’s probably why we’re stressed at 5:00pm every night. Let’s try and make at least two nights a week that I’ve planned a meal.’
You know, those, sort of, really little stopping points to stop us from getting back into that overwhelm of craziness. So, connecting, slowing down, and checking in.
Lisa: Oh, I just love-,
Jo: Nothing to do with nutrition at all, but really, really important.
Lisa: Yes, but this is the thing. The nutrition stuff is very hard to get it all fixed if you’re constantly maxed out, and think you’ve got no time in order to make the changes. I love all of those. I especially love the checking in. That’s such a great idea. I absolutely love that, I think I might start doing that.
You know, the slowing down stuff, I feel like the thing that I miss a lot, when things are fast-paced, is the processing time. Like, you think about Anne of Green Gables, walking to school, or everyone walked to their neighbours’, or even just did the horse. There was time, and silence.
There was nothing in their ears, there was no distraction, there were no ads. It was just time to process whatever had happened. And I feel like we just don’t get that in our current society, that beautiful processing time.
Jo: But I think we can. I think we’re so used to it being there, and we feel like there’s no way out of this, and the only way we can ever get out of it is just go and live on a deserted island somewhere and disconnect from the internet, and have no phone and all the rest of it.
That’s certainly how I felt, I just wanted to check out completely. But we can actually carve those little moments out in every day, by making choices. So, don’t have the radio on. Have a conversation with your kids instead of having music on, or letting them have devices on the way to school.
If you go for a walk, don’t put a podcast on. Actually just tune into the sounds of the leaves, and the dogs walking past, and your breath. Those little moments of the day, if you’re at home and your kids are sleeping, don’t fold the washing. Go and sit outside in the sun for ten minutes, and just sit there and have a cup of tea, and don’t try and do something.
Don’t try and multi-task all the time. Even though we are amazing, and capable of multi-tasking all the time doesn’t mean we have to. So, we can bring back in little parts of the Anne of Green Gables. I’ve just been working through this process, and working out my values, and things like that.
One of the words that kept speaking to me was ‘ease’ and I was like, ‘How can I make things just easier every day?’ And it’s not by just not doing anything, it’s by carving out these little moments where I get time to not think about everybody else’s needs all the time, or even my own, and just be. Because that’s the time, like you said, that’s when we process things.
It’s like when we sleep. When we sleep, our brain kind of washes itself and cleans itself, and it remembers what we need to remember, and it lets go of the stuff that we don’t. We need to do little moments of that during the day, because that’s when the creativity happens, or that’s when the solutions will come to us.
If we can just sit for five minutes, and there’s been something that you’ve been trying to work out, but you can’t because of all the noise – just go five minutes, and go, ‘Hang on, I could ask such-and-such to help me with that.’ Problem solved, you know.
We can carve those things out. We don’t have to actually do what society says we have to do, or what the ads tell us we have to do, or what anyone tells us to do really. We can just work out what suits us, and what’s going to work for us.
Lisa: Oh, I just agree so totally. My mentor said to me once, ‘Lisa, the rest is the work.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.’ Didn’t get what he was saying at all. Until the penny just really dropped for me, and I completely agree. Any clarity that I’ve ever gained, any breakthroughs that I’ve ever had about my children, our life, the business. Everything has happened in those moments.
Those moments of just silence, or when I’ve chosen to rest. Suddenly, I just get downloads galore coming through me because I’ve just stopped. Like, the good stuff happens when we stop. But it’s giving ourselves permission to do that, knowing that it’s actually essential to our life. What would our grandmothers think of this conversation?
Jo: They just wouldn’t understand it. They would not understand it.
Lisa: We’re just always on. Yes. Jo, I have so appreciated this conversation. I’ve got a few amazing little nuggets. I always learn stuff when we talk. And what I love about the way you do things is, everything comes from this place of deep knowledge about bodies, and nutrition, and all that sort of stuff.
But this place of real compassion, and grace. Because you understand where people are at, where they’ve been. I just love listening to you talk, so thank you once again for sharing. Because I think it’s a really important conversation. I think you’re on the front line with some of these women who are really at the peak of what we’ve been talking about today.
Nothing tips us over the edge more than when our kids aren’t well. I always feel so secure passing people your way, because I know they’re going to be beautifully taken care of. So, thank you so much for coming onto the Podcast again today.
Jo: Thank you. I will have a little PDF that people can download with those little tips on it, and some other little things that they can do, which I give to clients to remember this stuff. Because we go, ‘Oh yeah, that’s a great idea,’ but quite often we never follow through with these things. So, I will have that, and I’ll give you a link for people to download that for themselves as well.
Lisa: You are the best! I appreciate you so much, and everyone else is going, ‘Yay, good! Because I was listening to this on my walk, and not taking notes. So, awesome.’ Thank you so much. I’ll speak to you soon.
Jo: Thanks Lisa.